Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Pulsar
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:11 pm

Dear Auto. thank you for your reply. Let me point out a couple of things. It is up to each one of us to examine what the other one says, as Kalamas did. Buddha said no matter what, always listen first, so I listen to you.
First of all the new sutta you present, SN 14.11 is best ignored, until I have the time to explain why. We may have to revisit MN 128 in order to do this, it is complicated.
MN 44 that you introduced earlier, is a must study sutta, when carefully read, it is a goldmine.
I will point out why I say this, but these things take time, but then you might understand it without another's help also, or have you already understood it? If so I have a question for you.
Once you reply I will ask.

You dismissed MN 121, saying it is too easy, but it is a gem of a sutta, Buddha had a reason for presenting jhana (8th factor of Path in various ways) for people's receptivities are different.
We must not dismiss the wisdom of the Buddha. If there are errors in transmission of the canon, that is not Buddha's fault. The compilers were human, hence many errors, and corruptions are found.
You wrote
i see you getting more technical in what you write:
Pulsar wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:32 am
Stuff like infinite consciousness, and infinite space automatically happens at the peak of 4th Rupa jhana.
possible,
I think you are making fun of the simplicity of my language. The simplicity is intentional. I want folks, not to be intimidated by hifalutin words used in the commentaries often.
Some people are put off by words. You seem to be a Pali expert, I try not to use Pali unless it is essential, English as poor as it is, is the only way those who have not studied Pali
communicate. However words like Dukkha, sukkha, suññatā, asava, abhisankarothi. sacittapariyodapanam etc. are a must, it is not a big deal to remember these.
You ask whether jhana I follow is right. I learnt jhana initially by reading Sammanphala sutta.
Read it for yourself
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
a masterpiece of the canon. Its section on the 4 rupa jhanas are invaluable. The way it is explained to a king.
Description of first jhana reads as follows.
Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder ........, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates, this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal" A beautiful description
Just to read it is heart warming. You also spoke of brahma worlds familiar to the folks of DW. The only brahma world Pulsar knows is what he/she witnesses, when he engages in Jhana. The Buddha himself said any other brahma world one thinks of is only a mere mortal mental proliferation, or imagination, according to Kajjaniya sutta, i.e. abhisankharoti.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
If you read it carefully, you get the feeling that these concepts, if not realized only exists in one's mind, mental proliferations that chews one up. However, these are used as metaphors, in Sutta telling. Also temporary realizatiions within jhanas are sometimes compared to brahma worlds, the clarity of mind, bliss, peacefulness.

Meanwhile pl give this a read, DN 2 Samannaphala Sutta; the fruits of the Contemplative life, its section on 4 jhanas is very pertinent, Of course one finds elaborations here and there, as is typical of many suttas.
I will revisit this https://suttacentral.net/sn14.11/en/sujato later, not my sutta of choice when discussing sense bases/ayatana.

You wrote at the end
i think peeps have told you that when you get to the brahma realm there is possible no coming back to this existence, rebirth ended.
How do the peeps know of the brahma worlds? Have they realized those, through jhana, or is it just pure frivolous chat? Does rebirth really end at brahma world? One can experience brahma and deva worlds temporarily through jhana, or else one has to die to know, and then who will return to tell us? There is a sutta where Buddha makes fun of folks who speak of people going to heaven after death etc, only if I can find it!
Take care dear Auto. :candle:

Pulsar
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:37 am

Dear Auto, around the 4th line of of my last comment I wrote
MN 44 that you introduced earlier, is a must study sutta, when carefully read, it is a goldmine
it is an error, by the time I realized, it was too late, so I am adding a note.
The reference is to MN 43 Mahaveddala sutta, here there is a revelation as to what takes place
within 4th jhana, and when combined with DN 2 one has all the answers as to what buddhist meditation is (4 fine material jhanas, 8th factor of Path).
Also what I meant when I said Pali is not important is that the hard work has already been done for us, by the scholars, Nanamoli, Bodhi, Thannisaro, Analayo, Sujato and so on, there is nothing wrong in learning a new lang, if one has the time :candle:

auto
Posts: 1134
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:45 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:11 pm
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
a masterpiece of the canon. Its section on the 4 rupa jhanas are invaluable.
standard jhana descriptions there.

4th jhana,
"And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure and stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress — he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure nor stress. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness.
This Sutta doesn't say it but
the equanimity is further developed using ayatanas as a support. And you realize fabrications, that the equanimity is fabricated there.
MN 121,
The idea is to get into a dwelling where defilements of sensuality and desire for rebirth doesn't defile, the idea is to gain confidence in this dimensions so that you wouldn't come back to previous state of existence where lower and more gross defilements start defile.
They understand: So evaṃ pajānāti: ‘Here there is no stress due to the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, or ignorance. ‘ye assu darathā kāmāsavaṃ paṭicca tedha na santi, ye assu darathā bhavāsavaṃ paṭicca tedha na santi, ye assu darathā avijjāsavaṃ paṭicca tedha na santi, atthi cevāyaṃ darathamattā yadidaṃ—
MN 121 doesn't conflict or idk why you don't like SN 14.11 nor they conflict the standard description of jhana.

take DN 9, there are different ways to tell
"Now what do you think, Potthapada — have you ever before heard of such an alert step-by step attainment of the ultimate cessation of perception?"
..
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment.
the reason for to get cessation of perception and feeling is there will be a contact or dwelling then what inclines towards seclusion not away from it.
And then you can get to know the underlying tendencies, hence there are another set of 4 jhanas, like:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"— quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With that he abandons passion.
the pleasure what arises from withdrawal is what allows to abandon passion.

there are 4 ways of development of samadhi
https://suttacentral.net/an4.41/en/sujato
What four?
There is a way of developing immersion further that leads to blissful meditation in the present life.
There is a way of developing immersion further that leads to gaining knowledge and vision.
There is a way of developing immersion further that leads to mindfulness and awareness.
There is a way of developing immersion further that leads to the ending of defilements.
not enough? see,

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn ... .than.html
"And which, brahman, are the qualities that are higher & more sublime than knowledge & vision?
"There is the case where a monk — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. This is a quality higher & more sublime than knowledge & vision. [2]
this above is 3rd way of developing of samadhi, probably

read this first if you see long post and worry about your time:

point of this longer post is there are different types, so good idea would be to know what type of samadhi jhana you refer. With the DN 2(Samaññaphala Sutta: The Fruits of the Contemplative Life) it prolly refer that the jhana description there is about the 1st type development of samadhi what leads to blissful mediation in the present life(an4.41).

auto
Posts: 1134
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:27 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:37 am
Dear Auto, around the 4th line of of my last comment I wrote
MN 44 that you introduced earlier, is a must study sutta, when carefully read, it is a goldmine
it is an error, by the time I realized, it was too late, so I am adding a note.
The reference is to MN 43 Mahaveddala sutta, here there is a revelation as to what takes place
within 4th jhana, and when combined with DN 2 one has all the answers as to what buddhist meditation is (4 fine material jhanas, 8th factor of Path).
Also what I meant when I said Pali is not important is that the hard work has already been done for us, by the scholars, Nanamoli, Bodhi, Thannisaro, Analayo, Sujato and so on, there is nothing wrong in learning a new lang, if one has the time :candle:
no worries, you are known by making those kind of mishaps after couple of posts.
you should write down here what kind of revelation there is for You in mn 43 about what takes place in 4 jhana.
mn43
“But how is there no rebirth into a new state of existence in the future?” “Kathaṃ panāvuso, āyatiṃ punabbhavābhinibbatti na hotī”ti?
“It’s when ignorance fades away, knowledge arises, and craving ceases. “Avijjāvirāgā kho, āvuso, vijjuppādā taṇhānirodhā— That’s how there is no rebirth into a new state of existence in the future.” evaṃ āyatiṃ punabbhavābhinibbatti na hotī”ti.
seem 4th jhana when ignorance fades, the rebirth into new state of existence ends. But what about rebirth bach into previous existence?? so yes its already revelating to me before reading about 1st jhana.
“But what, reverend, is the first absorption?” “Katamaṃ panāvuso, paṭhamaṃ jhānan”ti?
here it seem the question imply the previous course was about 4th jhana?

good good.

there are reasons besides multiple translations also yourself too know some words from dictionary, you see translations are different by a huge margin..
also some vedic words to know..

its worth.

well it could imply that when ignorance ends there is no rebirth into next existence, you will then develop upekkha using ayatanas as a support; implying you are now out of the world.
when think about DN 2 then it is about (The Fruits of the Contemplative Life) so yes it goes to 4 jhana and not into dimensions since they are out of this world or out of range...idk.

Pulsar
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:47 pm

Dear Auto, yes I make plenty of mistakes, it takes me a while to get one comment done,
spelling errors, grammar errors endlessly, eating my time, chewing up my time, so there; it is better
to spend time meditating on suttas etc. or gardening, that bears flowers :)
Anyways you seem like fun, so I will write short responses now and then. You wrote
about DN 2 then it is about (The Fruits of the Contemplative Life) so yes it goes to 4 jhana and not into dimensions since they are out of this world or out of range...idk
.
What do you mean
they are out of range
you make it sound like there is a
deficiency. What is the deficiency in DN 2?
You have not answered my question. Have you understood MN 43 Mahaveddala in depth?
it is just I have a critical question, something I do not understand, and only a person who understood
the sutta at depth would be able to answer.
Thank you for engaging, you are like an angel. :candle:

auto
Posts: 1134
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:23 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:47 pm
Dear Auto, yes I make plenty of mistakes, it takes me a while to get one comment done,
spelling errors, grammar errors endlessly, eating my time, chewing up my time, so there; it is better
to spend time meditating on suttas etc. or gardening, that bears flowers :)
Anyways you seem like fun, so I will write short responses now and then. You wrote
about DN 2 then it is about (The Fruits of the Contemplative Life) so yes it goes to 4 jhana and not into dimensions since they are out of this world or out of range...idk
.
What do you mean
they are out of range
you make it sound like there is a
deficiency. What is the deficiency in DN 2?
You have not answered my question. Have you understood MN 43 Mahaveddala in depth?
it is just I have a critical question, something I do not understand, and only a person who understood
the sutta at depth would be able to answer.
Thank you for engaging, you are like an angel. :candle:
i mean the 4 jhanas are present life inclusive, while the 5-8 dimensions are not of this life or existence. Therefore when you get to the 4th jhana, there is no birth to next existence since factually there isn't next existence further from 4th jhana.

forget about the word 'out of range'.

DN2 is about the 1-4 jhanas, look at the head line of the sutta it is about fruits of present life, so it won't touch the 5-8 dimensions.
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:47 pm
You have not answered my question. Have you understood MN 43 Mahaveddala in depth?
it is just I have a critical question, something I do not understand, and only a person who understood
the sutta at depth would be able to answer.
i don't know mn 43

Pulsar
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:37 pm

Auto you wrote
i mean the 4 jhanas are present life inclusive, while the 5-8 dimensions are not of this life or existence. Therefore when you get to the 4th jhana, there is no birth to next existence since factually there isn't next existence further from 4th jhana.
what do you mean
present life inclusive?
Isn't that all we have and know of currently? 4 jhanas are present life buddhist meditation. To be released from suffering, to get to the Right knowledge the 9th step of 10-fold path, this is all we need. In SN 22.88 Buddha says
Assaji those who regard concentration as the essence and identify concentration as such...
are mistaken...
In my teaching that is not the essence; The essence is insight, path, fruit
meaning even the jhanas are dispensable, but of course essential to get to the step beyond.

You wrote
DN2 is about the 1-4 jhanas, look at the head line of the sutta it is about fruits of present life, so it won't touch about the 5-8 dimensions.
why the need to touch 5-8 dimensions? Can you pl explain?
Last edited by Pulsar on Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

auto
Posts: 1134
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:00 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:37 pm
why the need to touch 5-8 dimensions? Can you pl explain?
to get to the cessation of perception and feeling. To see mental fermentations- the origin of stress etc.
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:37 pm
what do you mean

i mean what you also said, jhanas are present life meditation.
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:37 pm
4 jhanas are present life buddhist meditation
you get free of ignorance but you don't get free of fetters. The 4th jhana is the base for realizing knowledge what eradicates mental defilements.

read,
DN 2, https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability — the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations.
the imperturbability is ayatanas 5-8 jhanas.

the consciousness what is free from defects, purified etc, is referring to the manovinnana what also is freed from 5 senses.

DN 2 has the requirement of 5-8 jhana(but its under the name imperturbability(heavens where is no returning back if can't realize the truth by wisdom in this life) if want end mental defilements.

*
i want to correct the instructions how to quote properly. If you press quote then there appears the entire text, just delete it all, there is another section under what shows where the draft is originated, just select there the parts of text and tehn hit the quote, it won't take the entire text this time put only the part you selected.


anyway you need cessation of perception and feeling to realize the truth by wisdom only, otherwise the perception and feeling gets on your way.

Pulsar
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:36 pm

Auto wrote
i want to correct the instructions how to quote properly
what is wrong with what I do? I select the sentence or more that I need addressed and quote it afterwards.
Pl tell me what is wrong with it? what is the point in repeating your entire response? It adds to the bulk pointlessly.
You wrote
DN 2 has the requirement of 5-8 jhana(but its under the name imperturbability(heavens where is no returning back if can't realize the truth by wisdom in this life) if want end mental defilements.
That is where you and I differ. Imperturbability is part of 4th jhana, If you understood MN 43, you would know
this, Maha Veddala, its content, Sariputta's responses to Maha Kotthita has to be understood. Pl give it another read. Lots of folks get this confused, and they get lost in 5-8 meditations, partly it is the fault of compilers, for some suttas impose 5-8 between 4 jhanas and cessation, apparently errors occurred sometimes and later translators did not want to tamper with it. The scholar monk Saddhatissa has said it may have been inserted by brahmins who became buddhists later. This is understandable, but in my early foray into the canon this thoroughly confused me. Thank God I am no more confused.

Have you paid attention to MN 125 a Bodhisatta sutta. Nowhere is anything beyond Jhana 4 mentioned, all the superpowers like divine ear, ability to read past lives etc is reached within that. But what is important to me is the destruction of fetters, delusions and defilements all accomplished within 4th jhana.
But this is hard to explain to another person. :candle:

auto
Posts: 1134
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:38 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:36 pm
what is wrong with what I do? I select the sentence or more that I need addressed and quote it afterwards.
Pl tell me what is wrong with it? what is the point in repeating your entire response? It adds to the bulk pointlessly.
You wrote
then you would not have to type who is the author of the quote.
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:36 pm
That is where you and I differ. Imperturbability is part of 4th jhana, If you understood MN 43, you would know
this, Maha Veddala, its content, Sariputta's responses to Maha Kotthita has to be understood. Pl give it another read. Lots of folks get this confused, and they get lost in 5-8 meditations, partly it is the fault of compilers, for some suttas impose 5-8 between 4 jhanas and cessation, apparently errors occurred sometimes and later translators did not want to tamper with it. The scholar monk Saddhatissa has said it may have been inserted by brahmins who became buddhists later. This is understandable, but in my early foray into the canon this thoroughly confused me. Thank God I am no more confused.
i don't know

It doesn't change the premise
ok lets say there isn't 5-8 jhana, there is imperturbability.

āneñja
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/ā/āneñja
āneñja増補改訂パーリ語辞典 水野弘元著
āneñja:a. 不動. -abhisaṅkhāra 不動行[三行の一]. -phala-samāpatti 不動果等至. -saṅkhāra 不動行. -samādhi不動三昧
āneñjaBuddhist Dictionary by NYANATILOKA MAHATHERA
āneñja:'imperturbability',denotes the immaterial sphere (arūpāvacara; s. avacara); s. saṅkhāra. cf. M. 106.

āneñjaConcise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
āneñja:[adj.] static; imperturbable.
immobile, there is no movement.
anejoPali-Dictionary Vipassana Research Institute
anejo:Free from desire
it is when manovinnana gets dissected from 5 senses.

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:36 pm
Have you paid attention to MN 125 a Bodhisatta sutta. Nowhere is anything beyond Jhana 4 mentioned, all the superpowers like divine ear, ability to read past lives etc is reached within that. But what is important to me is the destruction of fetters, delusions and defilements all accomplished within 4th jhana.
well you can say it is within 4th jhana but same amount of work is done as the one who thinks there is 5-8 jhana tho.

ok you got me, the mind is imperturbable, per mn 125. Ok for now i focus on what means "directing the mind"


hmm after 4th jhana you are able to direct the mind.

Pulsar
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:06 pm

Auto the issue you are facing, has been dealt with before this. Many scholars too have misinterpreted, so there.
I guess it depends on the individual, the 4 jhanas and the imperturbability within the last where destruction of fetters are accomplished make perfect sense to me. That is all Siddhartha did on the night of awakening, why must we seek the 5th-8th which was a method available before Buddha, but in the early form it did not enable insight.
In some suttas the 5th-8th are presented as accomplishing insight, i call it a jam, Compilers or Theravada Orthodoxy, after making a huge error had to come up with ways to fix it. I just ignore stuff like this in order to maintain my sanity.
Have you noticed how many time suttas seemingly contradict each other? But there are reasons for this too, I do not have time right now to go into this.
But one major SNAFU MN 111 Anupada Sutta... has the sequence as you say, but 5th-8th are presented as means of gaining insight, apparently something accomplished by Sariputtha, a very unusual thing, by an unusually capable person. We can't even think of doing stuff like this. Sariputta's mind! I get dizzy thinking about it.
But to add insult to injury some American monk (not Bodhi, not Thanissaro) uses this to teach his students Jhana. Go figure.
A fine way of confusing folks. why do they do that? don't ask me.
PS If you go over DN 2 again the metaphors it uses will give you some hints as to the efficacy of 4 jhanas.
but reading it three times may not be sufficient. :heart:

auto
Posts: 1134
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:01 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:06 pm
Auto the issue you are facing, has been dealt with before this. Many scholars too have misinterpreted, so there.
I guess it depends on the individual, the 4 jhanas and the imperturbability within the last where destruction of fetters are accomplished make perfect sense to me. That is all Siddhartha did on the night of awakening, why must we seek the 5th-8th which was a method available before Buddha, but in the early form it did not enable insight.
In some suttas the 5th-8th are presented as accomplishing insight, i call it a jam, Compilers or Theravada Orthodoxy, after making a huge error had to come up with ways to fix it. I just ignore stuff like this in order to maintain my sanity.
Have you noticed how many time suttas seemingly contradict each other? But there are reasons for this too, I do not have time right now to go into this.
But one major SNAFU MN 111 Anupada Sutta... has the sequence as you say, but 5th-8th are presented as means of gaining insight, apparently something accomplished by Sariputtha, a very unusual thing, by an unusually capable person. We can't even think of doing stuff like this. Sariputta's mind! I get dizzy thinking about it.
But to add insult to injury some American monk (not Bodhi, not Thanissaro) uses this to teach his students Jhana. Go figure.
A fine way of confusing folks. why do they do that? don't ask me.
PS If you go over DN 2 again the metaphors it uses will give you some hints as to the efficacy of 4 jhanas.
but reading it three times may not be sufficient. :heart:
it doesn't matter for me how many jhanas there are. For my muddled mind i don't discern the factors. And for me there is sense of self. I look Suttas differently without denial of self, that is already a big difference. And i have working system what is not from a Sutta found but i think is hindu origin.

i think the issue with the self dissect people into different groups much earlier than issue what is jhana and what is not and how many.


im interested on the information about Suttas as of how they are compiled, i always thought they are like bible, unchanged and recently getting used to it that it may be tampered.

So it is possible that the notion of 'there is no self' is some sort of unwholesome agenda too.

Pulsar
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:16 pm

Auto wrote
And i have working system what is not from a Sutta found but i think is hindu origin.
I kind of thought as much as our conversation progressed.
But each one seeks something truer, or something that brings them a certain release from life. Some
feel a discontent with life, and look for a solution.
You wrote
im interested on the information about Suttas as of how they are compiled, i always thought they are like bible, unchanged and recently getting used to it that it may be tampered.
Suttas were never like the Bible, they are honestly the teachings of the Buddha, orally transmitted, so obviously
there is the possibility of corruption.
BB has said it is like a jigsaw puzzle, meaning one finds the truths in the suttas scattered,
and the persistent seeker is able to put the pieces together and make sense of it, and come to know
what the Buddha really taught.
It fascinates me when I hear Buddha speak through the suttas, in the uncorrupted instance.
I did not quite mean to say they were tampered with, intentionally, but corruptions were very possible,
it is been over 2500 years, but it still brings joy to the seeker, and paves
a path for him/her.
Bible is not the words of Jesus, as I've come to understand.
Auto wrote
So it is possible that the notion of 'there is no self' is some sort of unwholesome agenda too.
I beg to differ here, what Buddha said is self is not in the things, that we think are self.
For instance feelings (or my feelings), which constantly change, how can they be self? One moment I think you are the angel, next moment I am not sure.
Likewise feelings, perceptions, wishes, consciousness which are constantly changing, can one rely on those? as oneself.
All of the above brings one suffering, as they keep changing. His teaching was meant to reduce suffering, and do away with it finally.
Buddha basically said this burden of life, made of feelings, perceptions, volitions, consciousness etc, if you do not pick it up you will be happier, which I find to be very true in my everyday life.
So in that sense, if one does not overthink, to that one, the teaching brings relief.
And the meditation (jhana) was designed to create an aloofness, from the rigid identification
with 'the person' the lightness of being to begin with.
Does it not make sense?
When you say you believe in the self, what do you believe is the self?
Can you describe it? Maybe this will teach both of us something :heart:

auto
Posts: 1134
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:04 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:16 pm
When you say you believe in the self, what do you believe is the self?
Can you describe it?
if you can't know or feel the self during being aware, then prolly you need to do an enquiry on "who i am".

what do i believe to be the self?

I am the self.

Issue is you can't be the self fully, there is separation. Trying to eradicate that separation by being more and more self by concentrating on your self, you go through many states and rounds but eventually you got to grab it and focus on the self or the target "what is a self", brackets since what you going to see is something else visually, there is DARK HOLE, the sense of self will lead you to it.
The dark hole is the passage what leads from head to under the lower abdomen. It is just a channel, but involves pretty many things to do.

Moral of story is the ability to sense the self is required to reach the cavity in the center of the head, the cavity at first isn't even there it will be raised there. The cavity itself is a passage to the sensual centers in lower abdomen areas, which are related to the sensual urges what arise.

And this is all for just a certain type of concentration by which you get access to legs. Which actually is 2nd type in a row there unique concentration you acquire before that. Slow type of concentration gets you to legs, intense speed concentration gets you to the head. Which also are in and out of breath regulates same things. You can summarize things into simpler and simpler terms, during walking the legs work as a pumps for quick and slow concentration of energy, there are two eyes there is separation, you can make eyes one by removing separation. But the center of the head point and the point below abdomen is up and down, when dealing with eyes it is sides, left and right.
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:16 pm
..And the meditation (jhana) was designed to create an aloofness, from the rigid identification
with 'the person' the lightness of being to begin with.
There isn't separate self who isn't affected nor you can't deny existence of the self, that poor deluded desire affected person is me.

you don't do anything different with the jhana, you too regulate energies. I'm lucky to understand what heuristics are.

Pulsar
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:52 pm

Auto wrote
I'm lucky to understand what heuristics are

heuristics! really, and you are so lucky? Watch the video below and tell me, are you still so lucky? What about all the errors that result from it?
People use mental short cuts to make sense of the world, but that leads to flawed conclusions, so one who uses such methods need to be humble. Recognizing the flawed nature of that thinking is a bold first step.
Of course Buddha's teaching does not lend itself to quick and easy method. Patient meditation is stressed in the teaching in relation to 4 frames of Reference, and the 4 Buddhist meditations (jhanas) etc. I will address the issue of body as self another time.
Enjoy your day dear Auto. :heart:

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: SeanB and 19 guests