Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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DooDoot
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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:36 am

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:11 pm
Dear DooDoot Budo is not wrong here.
I say Budo is wrong, here, because MN 128 called Upakkilesa Sutta is about the arising of various hindrances or corruptions (called Upakkilesa), which the suttas appear to say does not occur in jhana. Simply because the words "light" & "nimitta" are mentioned in MN 128, it seems papanca or mental discursiveness arose for those who believe the "light & forms" in MN 128 are about jhana.

I think only very serious upakkilesa would cause a person to believe a sutta called Upakkilesa Sutta is about jhana. :geek:
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:11 pm
The sutta speaks of Jhana and obasanimitta.
No. The sutta only refers to jhana at the end. If the obasanimitta was jhana then how could the 'jhana' fall away due to the doubt, loss of focus, dullness, drowsiness, terror :o and other hindrances & corruptions mentioned in the sutta? :shrug:
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:11 pm
However it is not the usual jhana formula found in many suttas. Hindrances are split up, which implies that the meditators are in a more advanced stage, and obstructions seem to have appeared in the 4th jhana
How can hindrances appear in the 4th jhana when they are abandoned prior to the 1st jhana? :roll:
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:11 pm
Help us with it if you can, but from what you say, you do not seem to practice this sort of jhana.
Since jhana is without hindrances, it seems your 'Hindrance Jhana' is not real jhana but something imagined.
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:11 pm
What you say psychic powers of Anuruddha is true, later he developed these
No. The "light & forms" mentioned in the sutta appear related to the natural emerging of psychic powers & not jhana. This is why hindrances such as "terror" arose. If the light & forms related to jhana, it would be a peaceful abiding.
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:11 pm
What makes you think Buddha is training them in Divine Eye?
I do not ever recall I said Buddha was training them in Divine Eye. I recall you made a post where you said Right Speech is a difficult practise for you. Possibly you can start a topic asking people to help you with Right Speech. To practise Right Speech, I recommend to not imagine things.

I think the following facts show no jhana:

1. Cannot read sutta logically, believing the hindrances of doubt & terror arise in jhana.

2. Cannot read my posts clearly. Always say I post & say things I do not post & say.

I my 1st ever meditation retreat, a very peaceful meditation occurred (during a period of 30 minutes). I followed the breathing continuously until my mind could not longer be aware of the breathing, because the breathing became very long, fine & calm. Afterwards, I floated in peace for many hours afterwards. Later I cried when thinking back how I never previously believed peace could exist. My impression is if you had an experience the same as the experience I had in my 1st retreat, you would believe this to be the 4th jhana or even believe it to be Arahantship. But, for me, this experience of tranquility I had one day in my 1st meditation retreat was only "momentary concentration".

:smile:

To end, MN 128 appears to not be about jhana because it appears to say only after the Upakilesa end, jhana can be developed. It seems I am not wrong. However, you & Budo are allowed to share the same ideas.
I thought:

‘I’ve given up my mental corruptions.
‘ye kho me cittassa upakkilesā te me pahīnā.

Now let me develop immersion in three ways.’

Handa dānāhaṃ tividhena samādhiṃ bhāvemī’ti.

I developed immersion while placing the mind and keeping it connected; without placing the mind, but just keeping it connected; without placing the mind or keeping it connected; with rapture; without rapture; with pleasure; with equanimity.

When I had developed immersion in these ways, the knowledge and vision arose in me:

‘My freedom is unshakable; this is my last birth; now there are no more future becoming.'

That is what the Buddha said.

Satisfied, Venerable Anuruddha was happy with what the Buddha said.


Upakkilesasuttaṃ niṭṭhitaṃ aṭṭhamaṃ.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:33 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:48 pm
Have you meditated like this using obasanimitta?
No. And I will say straight away, dotting the "i" that I did not reach any superhuman states.
Regarding the mental obstructions there is a discrepancy in the Pali sutta. Did you notice? Sensual desire and aversion are absent in Chinese version. An excerpt from Chinese version.
I have not studied parallel texts from Agama.
So MN 128 is describing an advanced stage ???
As I have already said, I consider that in MN 128 the obstacles for entering the first jhana are described. In my opinion, it is unthinkable to enter the first jhana, having such a gross state of mind as fear.

P.S. I agree with what DooDoot writes above.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:22 pm

Antaradhana, since you brought up MN 128, a sutta I am very unfamiliar with, I thought
you had some insight in to the sutta. It is a peculiar sutta, which talks about nimittas,
a bit like what appears in the commentaries. When I am unfamiliar with a sutta, I research it carefully, and
compare it with the agama parallel, to satisfy my own curiosity.
From the contributions you made to the thread, I assumed you had practiced
jhana to some degree, and was speaking out of experience. My error.
You wrote
No. And I will say straight away, dotting the "i" that I did not reach any superhuman states
My query about your practice, jhana
as in the 8th step of the mundane Eightfold-path
, was not about superhuman states.
MN 128 refers to obstacles that appear when practicing 4th jhana
as a novice. These monks were struggling with their meditations.
I found the sutta peculiar so I asked you about it, assuming you had studied the sutta. From now on
I shall be more careful.
I have not formed an opinion regarding this sutta yet. It puzzled me for a
different reason. I shall explore it further on my own. Every chat is a learning
experience, thank you :candle:

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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:29 pm

DooDoot you wrote
I say Budo is wrong, here, because MN 128 called Upakkilesa Sutta is about the arising of various hindrances or corruptions (called Upakkilesa), which the suttas appear to say does not occur in jhana.
Budo had already addressed this issue on this thread, so I will not try to dispute you here.
Your lawyerly skills rest on posting things out of context, and confusing folks. Where it appears to be out of context, I shall not bother answering those. Thank you :candle:

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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:34 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:22 pm
My query about your practice, jhana
as in the 8th step of the mundane Eightfold-path
, was not about superhuman states.
Already the first jhana is a superhuman condition (uttari manussa dhamma) MN 31.
MN 128 refers to obstacles that appear when practicing 4th jhana as a novice. These monks were struggling with their meditations.
There is no reason to think so. It is about obstacles for entering the first jhana.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:47 pm

Antardana wrote
Already the first jhana is a superhuman condition (uttari manussa dhamma) MN 31
It is not how I perceive first jhana, How can the 8th factor of mundane eightfold path be a superhuman
condition? Buddha was teaching the ordinary people also.
As for your other thoughts on MN 128, my research does not match with your thoughts, so let's agree to disagree.
You yourself admitted, you have not studied the sutta extensively. :candle:

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Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:31 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:44 pm
auto wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:51 pm
the Brahma realm abider can have wrong views like belief in permanent self
Yes. But in order to master the jhana and be born in the worlds of rupa-loka, it is necessary to develop to a certain extent virtue, concentration and wisdom. Virtue must be developed practically to complete perfection, concentration must be developed to master one or another jhana or formless sphere in order to be born in the corresponding world, and wisdom must be developed, at least to discard destructive beliefs, distinguish good and evil, and must have views about kamma. If Brahma is not Arya, then its killesa are only suppressed, the thirst for existence is active, and also the thirst for sensual pleasures will germinate again as soon as the birth in kama-loka follows.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.38/en/sujato
If you don’t intend or plan, but still have underlying tendencies, this becomes a support for the continuation of consciousness.
No ce, bhikkhave, ceteti no ce pakappeti, atha ce anuseti, ārammaṇametaṃ hoti viññāṇassa ṭhitiyā.

When this support exists, consciousness becomes established.
Ārammaṇe sati patiṭṭhā viññāṇassa hoti.
When consciousness is established and grows, there is rebirth into a new state of existence in the future.
Tasmiṃ patiṭṭhite viññāṇe virūḷhe āyatiṃ punabbhavābhinibbatti hoti.
..
https://suttacentral.net/mn82/en/sujato
One who enters a womb and the world beyond, Upeti gabbhañca parañca lokaṃ,
will transmigrate from one life to the next. Saṃsāramāpajja paramparāya;
While someone of little wisdom, placing faith in them, Tassappapañño abhisaddahanto,
also enters a womb and the world beyond. Upeti gabbhañca parañca lokaṃ.
in jhana there are underlying tendencies and there is also consciousness. Jhana is or happen or occur after cessation of 'perception and feeling'. 'Perception and feeling' are cetana.

jhana i think is for to remove anuseti/underlying tendencies as of they are two steps backwards from world beyond and womb, then comes jhana as of you got to be Brahma a noble born to have jhana.

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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:24 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:47 pm
As for your other thoughts on MN 128, my research does not match with your thoughts, so let's agree to disagree.
OK
You yourself admitted, you have not studied the sutta extensively. :candle:
I just said that did not read the parallel sutra in Agama, since I'm not interested the texts of other schools.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:02 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:47 pm
As for your other thoughts on MN 128, my research does not match with your thoughts, so let's agree to disagree.
MN 128 literally says it is about obstacles (upakilesa) for entering the first jhana.

SN 46.55 says the five hindrances are the reason for not comprehending MN 128 is about obstacles (upakilesa) for entering the first jhana.
Why is it, good Gotama, how does it come about that sometimes sacred words I have long studied are not clear to me, not to mention those I have not studied? And how is it too that sometimes other sacred words that I have not so studied are clear to me, not to mention those I have studied?"

Well, Brahman, when a woman dwells with her heart possessed and overwhelmed by sense-desires, ill-will, sloth, restlessness, doubt... and does not know, as it really is, the way of escape from these five hindrances that have arisen, then she cannot know or see, as it really is, what is to her own profit, nor can she know and see what is to the profit of others, or of both herself and others. Then even sacred words she has long studied are not clear to her, not to mention those she has not studied....

:smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:50 am

budo wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:21 am
Fear doesn't arise in first jhana, it can arise in 4th jhana when you stop breathing and other nimittas arise.
The above seems to be saying there is awareness of breathing in the 1st jhana. :?
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: Jhana

Post by Pseudobabble » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:55 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:50 am
budo wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:21 am
Fear doesn't arise in first jhana, it can arise in 4th jhana when you stop breathing and other nimittas arise.
The above seems to be saying there is awareness of breathing in the 1st jhana. :?
Since you've said repeatedly that you cannot do jhana, you should probably stop talking about it as though you know what it's about.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:58 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:55 am
Since you've said repeatedly that you cannot do jhana...
Where was this repeatedly said? Thanks
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:55 am
you should probably stop talking about it as though you know what it's about.
I think my posts are accurate. For example it is quite literally obvious MN 128 is not about jhana. Also, it appears quite obvious there is no awareness of breathing in the 1st jhana. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: Jhana

Post by Pseudobabble » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:46 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:58 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:55 am
Since you've said repeatedly that you cannot do jhana...
Where was this repeatedly said? Thanks
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:55 am
you should probably stop talking about it as though you know what it's about.
I think my posts are accurate. For example it is quite literally obvious MN 128 is not about jhana. Also, it appears quite obvious there is no awareness of breathing in the 1st jhana. :smile:
I'm not going to waste my time trawling your many, many posts relating to jhana.

While I agree that some of your posts are accurate, you clearly write from a book-learning perspective, with an emphasis on adherence to correctness vis a vis the literal texts of the suttas. As we all know, these are very old texts, which have been subjected to considerable editing, and as such, I think there is plenty to be gained from an experiential exploration of the techniques instead of textual nitpicking. Just because a particular text says something is so, does not mean it is so.

To your point that 'it appears quite obvious there is no awareness of breathing in the 1st jhana': it may well appear so to you, but since you have expended so many words in proclaiming jhana to be a 'supernormal', super-difficult, state to access, I wonder how it can appear so obviously to you. Besides, if you knew for sure, you wouldn't need to use the word 'appear', and you would be able to state clearly how it is for you, instead of making endless references and trying to beat people down on the subject.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:53 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:46 am
While I agree that some of your posts are accurate, you clearly write from a book-learning perspective
Obviously the above is an unsubstantiated comment. Regardless, this site is mostly about book learning. Refuge in the Dhamma means refuge in the "well-spoken Dhamma of the Buddha". Buddhism 101. Dhamma 101.
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:46 am
As we all know, these are very old texts, which have been subjected to considerable editing, and as such, I think there is plenty to be gained from an experiential exploration of the techniques instead of textual nitpicking. Just because a particular text says something is so, does not mean it is so.
Again, obviously the above is an unsubstantiated comment. Regardless, which "experience" is actually true??
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:46 am
To your point that 'it appears quite obvious there is no awareness of breathing in the 1st jhana': it may well appear so to you, but since you have expended so many words in proclaiming jhana to be a 'supernormal', super-difficult, state to access, I wonder how it can appear so obviously to you.
The suttas only refer to 5 jhana factors. Breath is not one of them. If breathing was an object of jhana, then consciousness would flow in & out of the body, tracking the breath. This means the mind cannot be "ekaggata". Its not rocket science. If breath continued to flow ordinarily, there would still be stress in the body, thus rapture could not consume the breathing. Its not rocket science.
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:46 am
Besides, if you knew for sure, you wouldn't need to use the word 'appear', and you would be able to state clearly how it is for you, instead of making endless references and trying to beat people down on the subject.
Obviously, if I knew the truth of jhana, it is not likely others would believe me. What is the point of claiming to know when the audience cannot ever know if your statement is true or false?

In summary, Dhamma Wheel is a Buddhist forum about the Dhamma of Theravāda Buddhism. The basis of discussion is generally the suttas & other texts. It appears clear by the suttas that:

1. MN 128 is about upakilesa (hindrances to jhana) rather than about jhana itself.

2. The 1st jhana has five factors, none of which are the breath.

3. Jhana is a superhuman state.

:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:06 pm

https://suttacentral.net/an4.41/en/sujato
“Mendicants, there are these four ways of developing immersion further. “Catasso imā, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā.
What four? Katamā catasso?

There is a way of developing immersion further that leads to blissful meditation in the present life.
Atthi, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā diṭṭhadhammasukhavihārāya saṃvattati;
There is a way of developing immersion further that leads to gaining knowledge and vision.
atthi, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā ñāṇadassanappaṭilābhāya saṃvattati;
There is a way of developing immersion further that leads to mindfulness and awareness.
atthi, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā satisampajaññāya saṃvattati;
There is a way of developing immersion further that leads to the ending of defilements.
atthi, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā āsavānaṃ khayāya saṃvattati.

http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/s/samādhibhāvanā
samādhibhāvanāConcise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera

samādhibhāvanā:[f.] practice of self-concentration.
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/b/bhāvanā

bhāvanāBuddhist Dictionary by NYANATILOKA MAHATHERA
bhāvanā:'mental development' (lit.'calling into existence,producing') is what in English is generally but rather vaguely called 'meditation'.One has to distinguish 2 kinds:development of tranquillity (samatha-bhāvanā),i.e.concentration (samādhi),and development of insight (vipassanā-bhāvanā),i.e.wisdom (paññā).

developing immersion- samādhibhāvanā

the mental qualities are called out, that is mental development.


bhāvanāPTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Bhāvanā,(f.) [fr.bhāveti,or fr.bhāva in meaning of bhāva 2,cp.Class.Sk.bhāvanā] producing,dwelling on something,putting one’s thoughts to,application,developing by means of thought or meditation,cultivation by mind,culture.-- See on term Dhs.trsl 261 (=2 240); Expos.I.217 (=DhsA.163); Cpd.207 n.2.‹-› Cp.pari°,vi°,sam°.-- Vin.I,294 (indriya°); D.III,219 (three:kāya°,citta°,paññā°),221,225,285,291; S.I,48; Dh.73,301; J.I,196 (mettā°); III,45 (id.); Nd1 143 (saññā°); Nett 91 (samatha-vipassanaṁ); Vbh.12,16 sq.,199,325; Vism.130 (karaṇa,bhāvanā,rakkhaṇa; here bh.=bringing out,keeping in existence),314 (karuṇā°),317 (upekkhā°); Miln.25 (°ṁ anuyuñjati); Sdhp.15,216,233,451.
bringing out, keeping in existence.

..concentration could mean you by effort keeping something in existence after it is called out or also concentrating to call out something.


it seem 1-4 jhanas is a samadhi what leads to sukhavihara.

It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption
when you are secluded so that unskillful qualities won't arise( they won't be called out)..then first jhana will happen and keeping it together as of that existence won't go away will result in 2nd jhana.

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