Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Spiny Norman
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Re: Jhana

Post by Spiny Norman »

Pulsar wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 4:49 pm
Spiny wrote
If consciousness arises as a dependency, how can it be independent?'
No one said it is independent.
With love :candle:
That's why I prefer "awareness".
:heart:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Spiny wrote
That's why I prefer "awareness".
:heart: Me too I prefer awareness, that is down to earth, but then awareness too is dependent. So we cannot get around the dependency issue by christening it with a new name. In the world of the Buddha everything
related to samsara is dependent.
With love :candle:

Spiny Norman
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Re: Jhana

Post by Spiny Norman »

Pulsar wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 6:28 pm
Spiny wrote
That's why I prefer "awareness".
:heart: Me too I prefer awareness, that is down to earth, but then awareness too is dependent. So we cannot get around the dependency issue by christening it with a new name. In the world of the Buddha everything
related to samsara is dependent.
With love :candle:
We can always get around dependency, it depends upon the assumptions we make. :heart:
Sorry if I've gone off topic.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Spiny wrote
We can always get around dependency, it depends upon the assumptions we make. :heart:
an example of that assumption being? it has to be really powerful, like in 'Awakening' when all dependencies are lost. Is there any other assumption on your mind? Pl enlighten me.
With love :candle:

Spiny Norman
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Re: Jhana

Post by Spiny Norman »

Pulsar wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 7:00 pm
Spiny wrote
We can always get around dependency, it depends upon the assumptions we make. :heart:
an example of that assumption being? it has to be really powerful, like in 'Awakening' when all dependencies are lost. Is there any other assumption on your mind? Pl enlighten me.
With love :candle:
It could just be a gradual opening to what is there, a feeling of connection to something bigger. A stillness, perhaps, something deeper. Maybe it's enough. :heart:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Spiny wrote 
It could just be a gradual opening to what is there, a feeling of connection to something bigger. A stillness, perhaps, something deeper. Maybe it's enough.
You mean mystical?  and find it difficult to say it, a gradual opening? In buddhist liberation, a person experiences the world differently, in a more direct and immediate fashion, since ordinary human experience is always separated from its objects by the web of symbolic representation. The claim that mystical experience gives access to different and higher reality is though not strictly true, almost correct, I read. Experience through symbolic representation is indirect, is mediated by a veil interposed...  Brahmajala?  a web of views? Experience without it, or with less of it is direct, immediate.
Strictly speaking it is the same objective reality that is experienced, but it is experienced so differently that the experiencer may have difficulty recognizing it.
If you had such an experience, perhaps you already have experienced something akin to jhanic states....Are you talking about this?
Are you getting at something really cool?
  • Cooling expressed as Nibbana, as temporarily one leaves all things behind, all conditions being left behind, the thing that neither rises, nor ceases...it is always there, it is just that
    you were preoccupied by other things, that you failed to recognize the cooling?
With love :candle:

Spiny Norman
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Re: Jhana

Post by Spiny Norman »

Pulsar wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:10 pm
Spiny wrote 
It could just be a gradual opening to what is there, a feeling of connection to something bigger. A stillness, perhaps, something deeper. Maybe it's enough.
You mean mystical?  and find it difficult to say it, a gradual opening? In buddhist liberation, a person experiences the world differently, in a more direct and immediate fashion, since ordinary human experience is always separated from its objects by the web of symbolic representation. The claim that mystical experience gives access to different and higher reality is though not strictly true, almost correct, I read. Experience through symbolic representation is indirect, is mediated by a veil interposed...  Brahmajala?  a web of views? Experience without it, or with less of it is direct, immediate.
Strictly speaking it is the same objective reality that is experienced, but it is experienced so differently that the experiencer may have difficulty recognizing it.
If you had such an experience, perhaps you already have experienced something akin to jhanic states....Are you talking about this?
Are you getting at something really cool?
  • Cooling expressed as Nibbana, as temporarily one leaves all things behind, all conditions being left behind, the thing that neither rises, nor ceases...it is always there, it is just that
    you were preoccupied by other things, that you failed to recognize the cooling?
With love :candle:
Nothing mystical, just an attempt at lyricism from somebody with bog-Irish roots.
To quote my Australian cousin: "No worries!"
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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DooDoot
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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 5:14 pm
That's why I prefer "awareness".
What is the Pali for "awareness (without consciousness)"? :thinking:
Pulsar wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 6:28 pm
Spiny wrote
That's why I prefer "awareness".
So we cannot get around the dependency issue by christening it with a new name.
:goodpost:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Spiny wrote 
Nothing mystical, just an attempt at lyricism from somebody with bog-Irish roots.To quote my Australian cousin: "No worries!"
The subject under discussion ... 4 buddhist jhanas.... dear Spiny with such great speed you brought me there. One goal of buddhist jhanas is the power to censure the six bases, not by blocking the senses as Brahmins do MN 152, though.
Something that will make sense to you.
Is Nirvana a mystical experience? AN 4.173 a dialogue between Mahakottitha and Saripauttha
Q. Venerable sir, with the fading away and cessation without remainder of the six bases of contact, is there anything else?
A. Do not speak thus, sir....When one affirms, ‘with the fading away and cessation without remainder of the six bases of contact, there is something else’, one conceptually proliferates that which is without conceptual proliferation

Now I see what you were trying to get at.
Not all awareness is conditioned.
When one drops the 'pesky consciousness' one does not become unconscious.
There is that pervasive infinite awareness of the Arahant that is independepent
I guess the discussion is made easier by our new found awareness. In the Arahant conceptual proliferation is calmed. There is an Awareness that is independent of dependent origination.
I am sorry it took me so long to understand what you were trying to get at. I wish you would spend more time enlightening me.
Awareness it shall be from now on... it gives us flexibility.
With love :candle:
PS I shall post more about issues with language next time.

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DooDoot
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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot »

Pulsar wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 10:43 pm
Not all awareness is conditioned.
What is the Pali for "awareness"? Everything, except for Nibbana, is conditioned in Buddhism, as Ven. Sujato explains at 2:49.

There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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confusedlayman
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

Pulsar wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 10:43 pm
Spiny wrote 
Nothing mystical, just an attempt at lyricism from somebody with bog-Irish roots.To quote my Australian cousin: "No worries!"
The subject under discussion ... 4 buddhist jhanas.... dear Spiny with such great speed you brought me there. One goal of buddhist jhanas is the power to censure the six bases, not by blocking the senses as Brahmins do MN 152, though.
Something that will make sense to you.
Is Nirvana a mystical experience? AN 4.173 a dialogue between Mahakottitha and Saripauttha
Q. Venerable sir, with the fading away and cessation without remainder of the six bases of contact, is there anything else?
A. Do not speak thus, sir....When one affirms, ‘with the fading away and cessation without remainder of the six bases of contact, there is something else’, one conceptually proliferates that which is without conceptual proliferation

Now I see what you were trying to get at.
Not all awareness is conditioned.
When one drops the 'pesky consciousness' one does not become unconscious.
There is that pervasive infinite awareness of the Arahant that is independepent
I guess the discussion is made easier by our new found awareness. In the Arahant conceptual proliferation is calmed. There is an Awareness that is independent of dependent origination.
I am sorry it took me so long to understand what you were trying to get at. I wish you would spend more time enlightening me.
Awareness it shall be from now on... it gives us flexibility.
With love :candle:
PS I shall post more about issues with language next time.
even that awareness is impermanent each moment. if this is not acknowledge some people take it as permanent and self entering in to subtle wrong view and might be reborn again without reducing their liffe to 7 life at minimum.
You can become king of world with all the wealth but it is not equal to 0.1 % of jhana pleasure...

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

DooDoot You have been blocked.
Pl take your bag of tricks and go elsewhere. If you want to disseminate misinformation.
Don't do it here. There are plenty of other threads available at the moment, to keep you occupied for the next 25000 years, but pl. not here.
Dear Spiny, you and I can continue
privately,
if you wish.
With love :candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Tue May 19, 2020 9:35 am, edited 2 times in total.

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Confusedlayman wrote....
You subscribe to a jhanic way other than Samma Samadhi. This thread is limited to the 8-fold path.
Your comments do not apply .. plus what you say here shows, you did not understand my comment before last, which refers to the conversation between Sariputta and Mahakottithata.
Read that sutta several times, perhaps something will sink in.
With love :candle:

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Confused wrote under the comment on Arahant's awareness,
even that awareness is impermanent each moment. if this is not acknowledge some people take it as permanent and self entering in to subtle wrong view and might be reborn again without reducing their liffe to 7 life at minimum.
Let me clarify and simplify. This shows that you are clueless of what Dinsdale and I were calling "Arahant's awareness" DooDoot got it all wrong too, and made an appearance on this thread, to show off. He showed off his own mighty delusion. Why does DooDoot slander Ven. Sujato? by misrepresenting him? quoting him out of context.
The video never says what DooDoot wrote. I listened to it 3 times, and not at 2.49. Theravada is full of misinformation, because folks like DooDoot speak the loudest, and the naive folks believe him. Let me reclarify the difference between the awareness of DooDoot and that of the Arahant.
From Madhupindika Sutta, MN 18 excerpt
Source from which conceptual proliferation, 
apperception, and reckoning afflict a person, if this is not delighted in, approved of or clung to just this is the end of latent tendencies, towards passion (repulsion, view, doubt, conceit, passion for being, ignorance etc) it is here that these evil, unskillful states cease without remainder. Arahant has no latent tendencies.
  • Folks are incapable of understanding this, due to lang. difficulties, or the web of views or the web of symbolic representation they are enclosed in.
Did you get a chance to read AN 4.173?
Disputes among Confusedlayman, DooDoot and Pulsar will come to end if that is understood. Let me dumb down the sutta. In AN 4.173, Mahakottitha asks Sariputta
"what happens to the Arahant when he is freed of the dependence on six sense bases?"... "with the fading away and cessation, without remainder of the six sense bases of contact is there anything else?
Sariputta tells him off...
"shut up for Christ's sake, there is nothing else to talk about"
With love  :candle:
PS Dear Confused, I have always found you lovable, extremely civil, even when you dispute others. You are always welcome here, on this thread.

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DooDoot
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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot »

Pulsar wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:19 am
DooDoot You have been blocked.
If so, why are you stilling posting about DooDoot.
Pulsar wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 10:41 am
This shows that you are clueless of what Dinsdale and I were calling "Arahant's awareness" DooDoot got it all wrong too, and made an appearance on this thread, to show off. He showed off his own mighty delusion. Why does DooDoot slander Ven. Sujato? by misrepresenting him? quoting him out of context.
Ven. Sujato was quoted accurately and demonstrated the error of the idea: "Not all awareness is conditioned". Ven. Sujato appeared to say the awareness or knowing of an Arahant is "conditioned". :smile:
Pulsar wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:19 am
. Arahant has no latent tendencies.
Yes, an Arahant has no latent tendencies. But their mind is still conditioned. The mind still arises dependent on sense bases, perception, feeling, nama-rupa, etc. The five aggregates are conditioned phenomena and an Arahant has five aggregates, as follows:
"Then, friend Yamaka, how would you answer if you are thus asked: A monk, a worthy one, with no more mental effluents: what is he on the break-up of the body, after death?"

"Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is stressful. That which is stressful has ceased and gone to its end."

"Very good, my friend Yamaka. Very good.

SN 22.85
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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