Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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confusedlayman
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 1:31 pm
Pulsar wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 1:24 pm
Finding traces of jhanic artifacts in Attakavagge and parayanavagge The questioners of these suttas are brahmins. Intro to Parayana wrote,
"these brahmins were all well known as teachers and men who found their enjoyment in life via their meditative practices (masters of Veda, formless samapatthis) yet they had reached only dead ends, stuck in a state of confusion, might the newly arisen Buddha unconfuse them?
verses Sn1032-1039, write, excerpts:
Ajitha's question
"In every direction, said Ajitha, 'the rivers of desire are running. How can we dam these? What can we use to close the flood-gates?"
"What are these rivers?"
Sn1038
"Sir said Ajitha, where there is wisdom and mindfulness there is also the hybrid of mind and matter [the generation of individuality] What brings it all to a halt?
This is the answer to your question, Ajita, said the master. individuality can be brought to a total end by the cessation of consciousness"
Buddha's very words, Yet many think when the consciousness comes to end, the person becomes unconscious. Folks believe in Arupa samapatthis without realizing these are meachanims of trapping consciousness. As long as one is stuck on such views, how can consciousness be freed?. Buddha's clear goal is the cessation of consciousness. View holder of Arupas and practicing so, end up in Brahma worlds.
  • flows of Asavas. like lava fields, rivers of dependent origination, unstoppable, asavas built over lifetimes, or from moment to moment. How to stop the river of dependent origination?
build a dam.
Look up MN 18, and MN 38. Pay attention to the six types of cognition, since cognition is dependent on 6 items. Task requires  a slew of skilled engineers, overseeing, reliable construction workers, relevant machinery, coordination, unforeseen issues can crop up, storms. mudslides?? crisis management, trouble shooting .....
  • Mindfulness is involved in ?????
Reversal of a river begun aeons ago??? The attention of every moment is needed, the 37 factors, iddhipada, you name it. 37 engineers of awakening. Read "the ship" SN 22.101  
It is curious.
  • Samma samadhi excludes Arupa samapatthis.
Eight fold path wanted nothing to do with Vedic teachings. Buddha taught the way to the cessation of consciousness. By reaching that goal the Arahant surely did not become unconscious. Did he/she?
With love on an uncertain morning, sun is not sure whether to come or go. Let us hope it comes out from behind the clouds.
So Buddha taught the way to the cessation of consciousness, and yet the Arahant is presumably not unconscious.
How do you explain this conundrum?
in 9th jhana he is unconciousness which is similar to pari nibbana. but during normal nibbana, he is non clininng aware of things
Master said dont neglect concentration ... practice jhana "O dhamma wheel users! "

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mikenz66
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Re: Jhana

Post by mikenz66 »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 1:31 pm
So Buddha taught the way to the cessation of consciousness, and yet the Arahant is presumably not unconscious.
How do you explain this conundrum?
The straightforward interpretation (which is just standard Theravada - see any text on the progress of insight, such as the Visuddhimagga or the Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma --- or Nanananda's Nibbana Sermons for that matter) that the "conscious Arahant" has emerged from the Nibannic cessation attainment.

:heart:
Mike

SarathW
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Re: Jhana

Post by SarathW »

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 10:55 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 1:31 pm
So Buddha taught the way to the cessation of consciousness, and yet the Arahant is presumably not unconscious.
How do you explain this conundrum?
The straightforward interpretation (which is just standard Theravada - see any text on the progress of insight, such as the Visuddhimagga or the Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma --- or Nanananda's Nibbana Sermons for that matter) that the "conscious Arahant" has emerged from the Nibannic cessation attainment.

:heart:
Mike
Hi Mike
This is the first time I heard this!
Please give a source.
However, I understand that only Anagami's and Arahant can attain the cessation of perception and feeling.
Another point is the Cessation of Perception and Feeling is not Nibbana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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mikenz66
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Re: Jhana

Post by mikenz66 »

SarathW wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 11:00 pm
mikenz66 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 10:55 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 1:31 pm
So Buddha taught the way to the cessation of consciousness, and yet the Arahant is presumably not unconscious.
How do you explain this conundrum?
The straightforward interpretation (which is just standard Theravada - see any text on the progress of insight, such as the Visuddhimagga or the Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma --- or Nanananda's Nibbana Sermons for that matter) that the "conscious Arahant" has emerged from the Nibannic cessation attainment.

:heart:
Mike
Hi Mike
This is the first time I heard this!
Please give a source.
However, I understand that only Anagami's and Arahant can attain the cessation of perception and feeling.
Another point is the Cessation of Perception and Feeling is not Nibbana.
The details are in the Visuddhimagga the last chapter of the CMA?
More briefly, see, for example, Mahasi Sayadaw's "Progress of Insight":
http://www.aimwell.org/progress.html#Pu ... eandVision
15. Path Knowledge
It is followed immediately by knowledge that abides in that same Nibbāna, which is void of formations since it is the cessation of them. This is called “path knowledge.”⁴³ It is also called “purification by knowledge and vision.”

16. Fruition Knowledge
That again is immediately followed by knowledge that belongs to the final stage and continues in the course of its predecessor. It abides in that same Nibbāna, which is void of formations since it is the cessation of them. This is called “fruition knowledge.”

17. Knowledge of Reviewing
The duration of that threefold knowledge of maturity, path, and fruition is, however, not long. It is very short, and lasts for just an instant, like the duration of a single thought of noticing. Subsequently there arises “knowledge of reviewing.” Through that knowledge of reviewing the meditator discerns that the insight leading to emergence came along with the very rapid function of noticing, and that immediately after the last phase of noticing, the path consciousness entered into the cessation (of formations). This is “knowledge reviewing the path.”

He also discerns that the consciousness abided in that same state of cessation during the intervening period between the path and reviewing. This is “knowledge reviewing fruition.”

He further discerns that the object just experienced is void of all formations. This is “knowledge reviewing Nibbāna.”
And you can trace some of Nanananda's ideas in Nibbana, The Mind Stilled.
https://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-cont ... ev_1.1.pdf
Nananda, Sermon 18 wrote: The idea behind this riddle is that the influx-free arahant, the such-
like-one, gone to the farther shore, which is supramundane, does not come
back to the mundane. Nevertheless, he apparently comes back to the world
and is seen to experience likes and dislikes, pleasures and pains, through
the objects of the five senses. From the point of view of the worldling, the
arahant has come back to the world. This is the crux of the problem.
...
"Just as, monk, an oil lamp burns depending on oil and the wick, and
when that oil and the wick are used up, if it does not get any more of these,
it is extinguished from lack of fuel, even so, monk, when he feels a feeling
limited to the body, he understands `I feel a feeling limited to the body',
when he feels a feeling limited to life, he understands `I feel a feeling
limited to life', he understands `on the breaking up of this body, before life
becomes extinct, even here itself, all that is felt, not being delighted in,
will become cool."
The last sentence is particularly noteworthy in that it refers to an
understanding well beforehand that all feelings, not being delighted in,
will become cool at death. The futuristic ending signifies an assurance,
here and now, as the word idheva, even here itself, clearly brings out. The
delighting will not be there, because all craving for a fresh existence is
extirpated.
:heart:
Mike

SarathW
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Re: Jhana

Post by SarathW »

The idea behind this riddle is that the influx-free arahant, the such-
like-one, gone to the farther shore, which is supramundane, does not come
back to the mundane. Nevertheless, he apparently comes back to the world
and is seen to experience likes and dislikes, pleasures and pains, through
the objects of the five senses. From the point of view of the worldling, the
arahant has come back to the world. This is the crux of the problem.
This is nonsense of Nananda!
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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confusedlayman
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

SarathW wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 11:49 pm
The idea behind this riddle is that the influx-free arahant, the such-
like-one, gone to the farther shore, which is supramundane, does not come
back to the mundane. Nevertheless, he apparently comes back to the world
and is seen to experience likes and dislikes, pleasures and pains, through
the objects of the five senses. From the point of view of the worldling, the
arahant has come back to the world. This is the crux of the problem.
This is nonsense of Nananda!
I dont want to reply to the above verse as I find it funny and ridiculous. lets non arhant stop talking of arhant unless they become one. only insults to arhants is increasing when someome say they still have origin of mental stress...
Master said dont neglect concentration ... practice jhana "O dhamma wheel users! "

Spiny Norman
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Re: Jhana

Post by Spiny Norman »

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 10:55 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 1:31 pm
So Buddha taught the way to the cessation of consciousness, and yet the Arahant is presumably not unconscious.
How do you explain this conundrum?
The straightforward interpretation (which is just standard Theravada - see any text on the progress of insight, such as the Visuddhimagga or the Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma --- or Nanananda's Nibbana Sermons for that matter) that the "conscious Arahant" has emerged from the Nibannic cessation attainment.

:heart:
Mike
So consciousness stops, and then restarts? Like rebooting a computer?

And does the Arahant "have" the same kind of consciousness as the worldling? The usual 6-fold sense-consciousness of the aggregates?
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Sun May 17, 2020 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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confusedlayman
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 8:07 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 10:55 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 1:31 pm
So Buddha taught the way to the cessation of consciousness, and yet the Arahant is presumably not unconscious.
How do you explain this conundrum?
The straightforward interpretation (which is just standard Theravada - see any text on the progress of insight, such as the Visuddhimagga or the Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma --- or Nanananda's Nibbana Sermons for that matter) that the "conscious Arahant" has emerged from the Nibannic cessation attainment.

:heart:
Mike
So consciousness stops, and then restarts? Like rebooting a computer?
And does the Arahant have the same kind of consciousness as the worldling?
when he emerge from it all things in world look abolutie illusion as he seen absent of all... so he will walk in world without clining.
Master said dont neglect concentration ... practice jhana "O dhamma wheel users! "

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Spiny Norman wrote 
So Buddha taught the way to the cessation of consciousness, and yet the Arahant is presumably not unconscious. How do you explain this conundrum?
Dear Spiny, I appreciate your question. In order to understand this transformation, buddhists need to understand what Buddha meant by consciousness, not what the Upanishadic masters meant. There are two trends of thought in Early Buddhism. One trend was heavily influenced by Upanisadic thought. So to keep matters straight OP subscribes only to one of them, the non-upanishadic,  MN 18. MN 38, MN 152 etc, there are suttas uninfluenced by Upanisadic thought.
The discussion is related only to the 8-fold path, and not other paths, like an Upanisadic path leading to Moksha. Confusion arises, due to the way folks understand consciousness, or even the way upanisad influenced suttas present consciousness.
It creates a problem when we discuss Arahant. For them person free of "that consciousness" becomes unconscious. However One size does not fit all.
For the buddhist Arahants do not become unconscious when they get rid of that "pesky consciousness".
For Upanisads "Self" represented by consciousness was the greatest thing, that enabled union with brahma, ascent of self
For Buddha "Self" represented by "that  consciousnesss" was the nightmare of Samsara.
While Buddha criticized the notion of a self, he also wrote only fools get stuck on self or non-self i.e. Kaccayanagotta.
We are walking a fine line here, we need to retain mindfulness in this discussion. With that understanding we shall try figure out what consciousness should mean to a buddhist.
Once we resolve this issue, then it will become clear why the Arahant is not unconscious.
Buddha or the Arahant cannot be understood without engaging in Samma Sati or Samma samadhi in the right manner, MN 117.
But here in a chat group, we are using language to understand the Arahant. We stopped being apes, we acquired language, we build concepts in order to sharpen linguistic skills. In the process, a web of concepts intervened between us and reality.
We are trapped by this web.
Buddha or the Arahant tore through that layer of concepts
pl tell me your thoughts.
With love 🍃🌲🌳🌴🌵🌿🌱. 🍃

Spiny Norman
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Re: Jhana

Post by Spiny Norman »

Pulsar wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 1:26 pm
Spiny Norman wrote 
So Buddha taught the way to the cessation of consciousness, and yet the Arahant is presumably not unconscious. How do you explain this conundrum?
Dear Spiny, I appreciate your question. In order to understand this transformation, buddhists need to understand what Buddha meant by consciousness, not what the Upanishadic masters meant. There are two trends of thought in Early Buddhism. One trend was heavily influenced by Upanisadic thought. So to keep matters straight OP subscribes only to one of them, the non-upanishadic,  MN 18. MN 38, MN 152 etc, there are suttas uninfluenced by Upanisadic thought.
The discussion is related only to the 8-fold path, and not other paths, like an Upanisadic path leading to Moksha. Confusion arises, due to the way folks understand consciousness, or even the way upanisad influenced suttas present consciousness.
It creates a problem when we discuss Arahant. For them person free of "that consciousness" becomes unconscious. However One size does not fit all.
For the buddhist Arahants do not become unconscious when they get rid of that "pesky consciousness".
For Upanisads "Self" represented by consciousness was the greatest thing, that enabled union with brahma, ascent of self
For Buddha "Self" represented by "that  consciousnesss" was the nightmare of Samsara.
While Buddha criticized the notion of a self, he also wrote only fools get stuck on self or non-self i.e. Kaccayanagotta.
We are walking a fine line here, we need to retain mindfulness in this discussion. With that understanding we shall try figure out what consciousness should mean to a buddhist.
Once we resolve this issue, then it will become clear why the Arahant is not unconscious.
Buddha or the Arahant cannot be understood without engaging in Samma Sati or Samma samadhi in the right manner, MN 117.
But here in a chat group, we are using language to understand the Arahant. We stopped being apes, we acquired language, we build concepts in order to sharpen linguistic skills. In the process, a web of concepts intervened between us and reality.
We are trapped by this web.
Buddha or the Arahant tore through that layer of concepts
pl tell me your thoughts.
With love 🍃🌲🌳🌴🌵🌿🌱. 🍃
So what is the "pesky consciousness" we're trying to get rid of, in your view? Or is it really not about consciousness at all, just trying to get rid of craving and aversion?

As for suttas v. Upanishads re: consciousness, the basic difference seems to be conditioned v. unconditioned. And in the Upanishads there are levels of consciousness, with sense-consciousness being the most superficial layer.
Nibbana is also said to be unconditioned, which might explain the confusion which sometimes arises when discussing "Nibbanic consciousness".
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Spiny wrote
So what is the "pesky consciousness" we're trying to get rid of, in your view? Or is it really not about consciousness at all, just trying to get rid of craving and aversion?
It is that consciousness that finds a home in
rupa, vedana and sanna.
Arahant's consciousness is made homeless of these, intentions cannot arise the DO way.
Mental proliferations cease.
Buddhas entire teaching is geared towards this. Suttas confirms below.
Consciousness finds a home
For the Arahant this factor is homeless. To put it in simple lang. (since my words might destroy what I am trying to say to you) try to connect with what I am saying, without inserting a meaning to each word I am saying.
When the consciousness is homeless, it is powerless.
It loses its ability at becoming.
DN 1 writes Buddhas and Arahants have a body, i.e. sense bases connected to the body, but are disconnected from the tree of becoming,
they do not lose sentience.
They do not have the consciousness of the kind we have, which is relentlessly finding a home, and gets found as "I am". Let us say consciousness is a stray dog. It can become powerful or active only when it is adopted by a home. Nothing adopts the stray dog of arahant's consciousness,
  • Arahant has developed Iddhipada, the highest power, he knows such adoptions bring one back to Samsara
Arahant can still jolly well see, touch, and all that jazz, but since the connection of seen, heard, cognized have lost the connection to that homing instinct, he/she can float around this world and interact and think also, but not the way you and I think.
Now once you become familiar with the ability to meditate (try the Bahia way) or live with MN 18 for a few days, you will be amazed at yourself. I am not a fan of commentaries or anybody for that matter. Even say Nanananda as good as he is with explaining some suttas, creates a cloud for me with his Nibbana commentaries. I try to follow what I understand and not go chasing after waterfalls.
So far selected words from the Pali canon has done the best job for me. I will not replace Buddha with Buddhaghosa, Ajahn Chah, Ajahn Brahms or Ven. Nananada. My biggest stumbling block was the contradictions found in the Pali canon, It has been sorted out, but then one is gotta want to do that by oneself.
That urge has to come from within you. I never studied philosophy, once I regretted it, no more. I think that thinking interferes with understanding Buddha. I worked as a scientist, where initially one is suspicious of accepted norms, related to one's research, I mean what is published. This helped me best in sorting out Pali canon, and not feeling guilty about. I was not burdened with the tradition. That is a load off, of one's back.
Tradition is what you create for yourself in understanding the Pali canon. Canon is all we have to go by.
Everything else is somebody else's thought, not Buddha's.
You wrote
As for suttas v. Upanishads re: consciousness, the basic difference seems to be conditioned v. unconditioned. And in the Upanishads there are levels of consciousness, with sense-consciousness being the most superficial layer. 
I think it will help you a great deal that you've studied Upanishads, since that will enable you to understand the subtle differences between those and Buddha's teaching.
  • I think Upanisad teachers have done a great job in adopting some of Buddha's teachings and repackaging them in a poetic way
so folks are seduced by these, and swear by these. But in that process of poetry, the underlying profound notion of losing the 'pesky consciousness' has been lost. Some feel consoled by the notion, that there is something to them, some essence. Superficailly the two teachings look alike, but underneath is a world of difference....
You wrote
Nibbana is also said to be unconditioned, which might explain the confusion which sometimes arises when discussing "Nibbanic consciousness".
I will respond to this another day. Comments wear me out, and this requires a well organized answer.
Pl ask me to elaborate on anything I say...My expression is not the best, since I am not a scholar, but it will have to do. I like it that you take the trouble to really read what I write.
With love 🕊
PS this comment about Nananada etc does not mean that they have not helped me. The tradition helped me get to Buddha, but once you find the buddha, there is a lightness in leaving the tradition behind. Because this tradition that helped me, also says things that Buddha did not say. I had to go with one or the other.

Spiny Norman
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Re: Jhana

Post by Spiny Norman »

Pulsar wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 10:21 am
Spiny wrote
So what is the "pesky consciousness" we're trying to get rid of, in your view? Or is it really not about consciousness at all, just trying to get rid of craving and aversion?
It is that consciousness that finds a home in
rupa, vedana and sanna.
Arahant's consciousness is made homeless of these, intentions cannot arise the DO way.
Mental proliferations cease.
Buddhas entire teaching is geared towards this. Suttas confirms below.
Consciousness finds a home
For the Arahant this factor is homeless. To put it in simple lang. (since my words might destroy what I am trying to say to you) try to connect with what I am saying, without inserting a meaning to each word I am saying.
When the consciousness is homeless, it is powerless.
It loses its ability at becoming.
DN 1 writes Buddhas and Arahants have a body, i.e. sense bases connected to the body, but are disconnected from the tree of becoming,
they do not lose sentience.
They do not have the consciousness of the kind we have, which is relentlessly finding a home, and gets found as "I am". Let us say consciousness is a stray dog. It can become powerful or active only when it is adopted by a home. Nothing adopts the stray dog of arahant's consciousness,
  • Arahant has developed Iddhipada, the highest power, he knows such adoptions bring one back to Samsara
Arahant can still jolly well see, touch, and all that jazz, but since the connection of seen, heard, cognized have lost the connection to that homing instinct, he/she can float around this world and interact and think also, but not the way you and I think.
Now once you become familiar with the ability to meditate (try the Bahia way) or live with MN 18 for a few days, you will be amazed at yourself. I am not a fan of commentaries or anybody for that matter. Even say Nanananda as good as he is with explaining some suttas, creates a cloud for me with his Nibbana commentaries. I try to follow what I understand and not go chasing after waterfalls.
So far selected words from the Pali canon has done the best job for me. I will not replace Buddha with Buddhaghosa, Ajahn Chah, Ajahn Brahms or Ven. Nananada. My biggest stumbling block was the contradictions found in the Pali canon, It has been sorted out, but then one is gotta want to do that by oneself.
That urge has to come from within you. I never studied philosophy, once I regretted it, no more. I think that thinking interferes with understanding Buddha. I worked as a scientist, where initially one is suspicious of accepted norms, related to one's research, I mean what is published. This helped me best in sorting out Pali canon, and not feeling guilty about. I was not burdened with the tradition. That is a load off, of one's back.
Tradition is what you create for yourself in understanding the Pali canon. Canon is all we have to go by.
Everything else is somebody else's thought, not Buddha's.
You wrote
As for suttas v. Upanishads re: consciousness, the basic difference seems to be conditioned v. unconditioned. And in the Upanishads there are levels of consciousness, with sense-consciousness being the most superficial layer. 
I think it will help you a great deal that you've studied Upanishads, since that will enable you to understand the subtle differences between those and Buddha's teaching.
  • I think Upanisad teachers have done a great job in adopting some of Buddha's teachings and repackaging them in a poetic way
so folks are seduced by these, and swear by these. But in that process of poetry, the underlying profound notion of losing the 'pesky consciousness' has been lost. Some feel consoled by the notion, that there is something to them, some essence. Superficailly the two teachings look alike, but underneath is a world of difference....
You wrote
Nibbana is also said to be unconditioned, which might explain the confusion which sometimes arises when discussing "Nibbanic consciousness".
I will respond to this another day. Comments wear me out, and this requires a well organized answer.
Pl ask me to elaborate on anything I say...My expression is not the best, since I am not a scholar, but it will have to do. I like it that you take the trouble to really read what I write.
With love 🕊
PS this comment about Nananada etc does not mean that they have not helped me. The tradition helped me get to Buddha, but once you find the buddha, there is a lightness in leaving the tradition behind. Because this tradition that helped me, also says things that Buddha did not say. I had to go with one or the other.
Interesting stuff, as always, and I admire your thoroughness, and attention to detail. I'm quite sciency myself.
As a general observation, I find the whole "consciousness" thing problematic, and not just in Buddhism. It seems like a can of worms. I prefer a term like "awareness", which has the advantage of being usefully vague. It allows for the possibility of different types, and levels of awareness.

I find the suttas rather contradictory on the subject of "consciousness", which is generally described in terms of sense-consciousness.
On the one hand, sense-consciousness can only arise in dependendence on certain conditions (sense-bases, nama-rupa, etc), and it's "conjoined" with feeling and perception.
On the other hand, it can apparently have a life of its own, and be free from involvement with the other aggregates. But that "independence" of consciousness feels more Upanishadic than Buddhist.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Pulsar
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Spiny wrote 
Interesting stuff, as always, and I admire your thoroughness, and attention to detail. I'm quite sciency myself. As a general observation, I find the whole "consciousness" thing problematic, and not just in Buddhism. It seems like a can of worms. I prefer a term like "awareness", which has the advantage of being usefully vague. It allows for the possibility of different types, and levels of awareness.'consciousness thing' as presented in suttas is problematic
 I agree. A word like awareness is definitely better. Consciousness or Vinnana itself linguistically is a problem.
Vinnana means bifurcated thought
Let us just call it thought for ease. Our consciousness is bifurcated, it is true.
Without subject and object you and I cannot think normally. But for the arahant this does not happen, he/she does not need subject/object to think
So when we say Vinnanam anidassanam (Borrowed from Upanisad) it is an oxymoron. Westerners have a whole different take on consciousness, and we are influenced by these also.
I find the suttas rather contradictory on the subject of "consciousness", which is generally described in terms of sense-consciousness.
Suttas contain teachings of Buddha and subsequent teachers. Don't be put off by that, we are conscious because we are sentient beings, equipped with six sense media, that enables the cognizing machinery.
You wrote
On the one hand, sense-consciousness can only arise in dependendent on conditions (eg sense-bases), and it's "conjoined" with feeling and perception. On the other hand, it can apparently have a life of its own, and be free from involvement with the other aggregates - or something
Conjoined? tricky word manufactured by MN 43 or 44 two other lately made suttas. What the heck does conjoin mean?... joined at the hip? don't be afraid to ask yourself. I have come to peace with my own understanding, after endless struggle.
To me consciousness arises as a dependency (DO rules) and is named differently like Phassa, vedana, sanna to explain the differences in the way it is experienced. Let us take Bahia, Buddha asked Bahia to keep it simple right there. If you can do that, you will not mentally proliferate.
Let us just confine ourselves to Phassa, vedana, and sanna, for now. During this activity the underlying tendencies(not active consciousness) try to influence what is happening with the active newly arising sense consciousness. People struggles with this, that maybe why Yogacara Vasubandu called the underlying stuff Alaya Vinnana. For some it might work, but Buddha had said there is only six types of consciousness or cognition...I like to stay close to Buddha. Are you with me so far? before I go on to the next thing?
With love :candle:

Spiny Norman
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Re: Jhana

Post by Spiny Norman »

Pulsar wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 3:31 pm
Spiny wrote 
Interesting stuff, as always, and I admire your thoroughness, and attention to detail. I'm quite sciency myself. As a general observation, I find the whole "consciousness" thing problematic, and not just in Buddhism. It seems like a can of worms. I prefer a term like "awareness", which has the advantage of being usefully vague. It allows for the possibility of different types, and levels of awareness.'consciousness thing' as presented in suttas is problematic
 I agree. A word like awareness is definitely better. Consciousness or Vinnana itself linguistically is a problem.
Vinnana means bifurcated thought
Let us just call it thought for ease. Our consciousness is bifurcated, it is true.
Without subject and object you and I cannot think normally. But for the arahant this does not happen, he/she does not need subject/object to think
So when we say Vinnanam anidassanam (Borrowed from Upanisad) it is an oxymoron. Westerners have a whole different take on consciousness, and we are influenced by these also.
I find the suttas rather contradictory on the subject of "consciousness", which is generally described in terms of sense-consciousness.
Suttas contain teachings of Buddha and subsequent teachers. Don't be put off by that, we are conscious because we are sentient beings, equipped with six sense media, that enables the cognizing machinery.
You wrote
On the one hand, sense-consciousness can only arise in dependendent on conditions (eg sense-bases), and it's "conjoined" with feeling and perception. On the other hand, it can apparently have a life of its own, and be free from involvement with the other aggregates - or something
Conjoined? tricky word manufactured by MN 43 or 44 two other lately made suttas. What the heck does conjoin mean?... joined at the hip? don't be afraid to ask yourself. I have come to peace with my own understanding, after endless struggle.
To me consciousness arises as a dependency (DO rules) and is named differently like Phassa, vedana, sanna to explain the differences in the way it is experienced. Let us take Bahia, Buddha asked Bahia to keep it simple right there. If you can do that, you will not mentally proliferate.
Let us just confine ourselves to Phassa, vedana, and sanna, for now. During this activity the underlying tendencies(not active consciousness) try to influence what is happening with the active newly arising sense consciousness. People struggles with this, that maybe why Yogacara Vasubandu called the underlying stuff Alaya Vinnana. For some it might work, but Buddha had said there is only six types of consciousness or cognition...I like to stay close to Buddha. Are you with me so far? before I go on to the next thing?
With love :candle:
If consciousness arises as a dependency, how can it be independent?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Pulsar
Posts: 791
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Spiny wrote
If consciousness arises as a dependency, how can it be independent?'
No one said it is independent.
With love :candle:

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