Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
auto
Posts: 1096
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:41 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:43 pm
Auto wrote
so what exactly your practice results in?
it brings about an immense peacefulness
to life on the good days. One sees how life gets discombobulated, by various sense impressions or phassa.
The jhana meditations teaches one to avoid these impressions, either through eye, ear etc or via mental
impression. Enables clarity, where truths can be realized.
It provides a sanctuary from sense impressions. For that short duration, one is disengaged from
the cycle of dependent origination, since no volitions arise.
When things become busy, like family gatherings etc. the practice
suffers. But from such occasions, with time, it is easier to get back
to square one. To be free of sense impression, is an unburdening, while being totally aware. Maybe that is
why some call it is a kind of heaven, this fine material sphere.
:candle:
when being totally aware. I think what you have at that time is subjective consciousness(citta) and rebirth consciousness(vinnana) haven't descended yet.
Idea is to catch that rebirth consciousness, to get to the jhana

based on that i think you don't have jhana.

Pulsar
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:15 pm

Auto wrote:
I think what you have at that time is subjective consciousness(citta) and rebirth consciousness(vinnana) haven't descended yet.
Idea is to catch that rebirth consciousness, to get to the jhana

based on that i think you don't have jhana
where do you get this idea that jhana consciousness is linked with rebirth consciousness? It is the
first time I hear of this. Interesting! can you pl bring in some sutta references. :heart:

auto
Posts: 1096
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:53 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:15 pm
Auto wrote:
I think what you have at that time is subjective consciousness(citta) and rebirth consciousness(vinnana) haven't descended yet.
Idea is to catch that rebirth consciousness, to get to the jhana

based on that i think you don't have jhana
where do you get this idea that jhana consciousness is linked with rebirth consciousness? It is the
first time I hear of this. Interesting! can you pl bring in some sutta references. :heart:
https://suttacentral.net/an3.34/en/sujato
.
Greed, hate, and delusion are sources that give rise to deeds. Lobho nidānaṃ kammānaṃ samudayāya, doso nidānaṃ kammānaṃ samudayāya, moho nidānaṃ kammānaṃ samudayāya.
p.298 abhidhamma by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon..
1 Avijjà-paccayà saïkhàrà –
Dependent on ignorance arise the rebirth-producing
volition or kamma formations.
.
Any deed that emerges from greed—born, sourced, and originated from greed—ripens where that new life-form is born. Yaṃ, bhikkhave, lobhapakataṃ kammaṃ lobhajaṃ lobhanidānaṃ lobhasamudayaṃ, yatthassa attabhāvo nibbattati tattha taṃ kammaṃ vipaccati.
2 Saïkhàra-paccayà vi¤¤ànaü –
Dependent on kamma formations (in past life) arises
rebirth consciousness (in the present life).
.
And wherever that deed ripens, its result is experienced—either in the present life, or in the next life, or in some subsequent period. Yattha taṃ kammaṃ vipaccati tattha tassa kammassa vipākaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti, diṭṭhe vā dhamme upapajja vā apare vā pariyāye.
Vi¤¤àõa-paccayà nàma-råpaü –
Dependent on rebirth consciousness arise the mental
and physical phenomena.
https://suttacentral.net/mn109/en/sujato
Name and form are the reasons why the aggregate of consciousness is found.” Nāmarūpaṃ kho, bhikkhu, hetu, nāmarūpaṃ paccayo viññāṇakkhandhassa paññāpanāyā”ti.

http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/g/gotrabhū
gotrabhūBuddhist Dictionary by NYANATILOKA MAHATHERA
I.'Maturity-Moment' (gotrabhū-citta) is the last of the 4 impulsive moments (javana,q.v.; cf.viññāṇa-kicca) immediately preceding the entering into an absorption (jhāna,q.v.) or into one of the supermundane paths (s.ariya-puggala,A.).Cf.visuddhi VII.
p 167 abhidhamma by Dr. Mehm Tin Mo
gotrabhu: the citta that cuts the kàma-lineage to
form the exalted or mahaggata-lineage.
These four cittas are known as upacàra-samàdhi
javanas...
Immediately after gotrabhu, råpàvacara kusala firstjhàna
citta arises just once as appanà-javana. After the
dissolution of this first-jhàna citta, bhavaïga-stream flows
on as usual.
anyway there are these moments..just shooting from a hip..

Pulsar
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:49 am

Auto ended
anyway there are these moments..just shooting from a hip
thank you for clarifying, just superficially going over your comment ...I won't bother to open the
links if you are shooting from the hip.
Besides I would not want to discuss the buddhist meditation based on one dictionary definition,
to save time. Time is precious. Just before passing away the Tathagata said, do not waste a single moment
"shooting from the hip" :)
I like you Auto, so I jokingly say this.
I've seen folks in some threads pull a definition of 'Anenja' from one
dictionary and try to disseminate what is meant by imperturbable in the canon.
You cannot know the meaning of imperturbable, by using a thousand definitions, but one moment of imperturbable
meditaion will certainly help. :heart:

auto
Posts: 1096
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:36 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:49 am
Auto ended
anyway there are these moments..just shooting from a hip
thank you for clarifying, just superficially going over your comment ...I won't bother to open the
links if you are shooting from the hip.
Besides I would not want to discuss the buddhist meditation based on one dictionary definition,
to save time. Time is precious. Just before passing away the Tathagata said, do not waste a single moment
"shooting from the hip" :)
I like you Auto, so I jokingly say this.
I've seen folks in some threads pull a definition of 'Anenja' from one
dictionary and try to disseminate what is meant by imperturbable in the canon.
You cannot know the meaning of imperturbable, by using a thousand definitions, but one moment of imperturbable
meditaion will certainly help. :heart:
Well you talked about being totally aware. I point out that this total awareness doesn't last, the other consciousness will siege you and you give in to it at some point.
How we know it, you are not aware all the time you lose awareness and come aware..

The critical factor is that you should turn it around so that the awareness 'where you are totally aware' you notice it coming before you actually come totally aware.
To do that there are things gone through some knowledges and states of minds etc.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

..(read further if have time but main point is the above two paragraphs)
More so, do you know that you can concentrate on that awareness, first of you can learn to recognize it, when it arises you also can see its light and more so you can just recall it by using eyes and there will be also energy substance appear and grasping that substance(which at first is just a small fickle, very very faint movement in mind) using breath function(not the breath itself) to solely focus on that aspect to squeeze(just another way to concentrate).

the awareness is known by the sense of self, concentrating upon oneself. But don't dream that big, first try to get pass the urges/desires what make up the sakkaya so that you actually could see.

Pulsar
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:09 am

Dear Auto: what does the series of dots under
To do that there are things gone through some knowledges and states of minds etc.
mean, things incommunicable of jhana?
Just trying to figure out your comment... I am kinda lost here. :candle:

auto
Posts: 1096
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:50 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:09 am
Dear Auto: what does the series of dots under
To do that there are things gone through some knowledges and states of minds etc.
mean, things incommunicable of jhana?
Just trying to figure out your comment... I am kinda lost here. :candle:
i tried to just leave larger space between two messages. So that you would focus on the first part of the message.

Pulsar
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:06 pm

Auto wrote
i tried to just leave larger space between two messages. So that you would focus on the first part of the message
that is funny, but then you are so right. I learn to survive by not reading some comments, or else
it would be hard to get into that equanimous mode, after I am done with the internet.
Dear Auto what you say about jhana is not quite right, 'one cannot have jhana', it is not a possession, not an acquisition. It is a case of constant renunciation, so the correct thing to say is one can never have jhana.
One can only aspire to not have lusts, not have angers and not the delusions, plainly a total renunciation, yet it is the most beautiful renunciation, when only the higher mind comes into play...it silences the noise. :heart:

auto
Posts: 1096
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:31 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:06 pm
Auto wrote
i tried to just leave larger space between two messages. So that you would focus on the first part of the message
that is funny, but then you are so right. I learn to survive by not reading some comments, or else
it would be hard to get into that equanimous mode, after I am done with the internet.
Dear Auto what you say about jhana is not quite right, 'one cannot have jhana', it is not a possession, not an acquisition. It is a case of constant renunciation, so the correct thing to say is one can never have jhana.
One can only aspire to not have lusts, not have angers and not the delusions, plainly a total renunciation, yet it is the most beautiful renunciation, when only the higher mind comes into play...it silences the noise. :heart:
a question
when you are at 4th jhana or gone through 4th jhana do you start see the possibility of superpowers, like flying in the air etc, so also how you could even get to that point of being able to fly(what are the requirements)? or you think you just can fly when get the relevant knowledge?

that is the reason why the jhana can't be just some shyt relaxation.

Pulsar
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:03 pm

Auto wrote
that is the reason why the jhana can't be just some shyt relaxation.
that is merely a thought arising out of ignorance. Tell me your first jhana experience, and I will tell you
about what 4th jhana is like, to correct you though, it is not a relaxation...it is a dynamic state.
Do I think about flying?
No by the time of this pristine state of mind, one is totally indifferent, to flight, or swimming or sky diving :)
Walking through walls though, if a thought of anger were to arise, due to
sudden interruption, one merely walks through that wall of anger.
You mentioned
Superpowers
How do you perceive superpowers dear Auto? Buddha
said the highest superpower is the ability to be convinced of the 4 truths, which will enable
the meditator to wipe the defilements, one
step at a time, and to witness the arising of things dependently, world soaked
in delusion.
Pulsar does not aspire to lesser superpowers. If pulsar wants to fly,
Pulsar will buy an airline ticket. :heart:

auto
Posts: 1096
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:04 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:03 pm
Auto wrote
that is the reason why the jhana can't be just some shyt relaxation.
that is merely a thought arising out of ignorance. Tell me your first jhana experience, and I will tell you
about what 4th jhana is like, to correct you though, it is not a relaxation...it is a dynamic state.
Do I think about flying?
No by the time of this pristine state of mind, one is totally indifferent, to flight, or swimming or sky diving :)
Walking through walls though, if a thought of anger were to arise, due to
sudden interruption, one merely walks through that wall of anger.
You mentioned
Superpowers
How do you perceive superpowers dear Auto? Buddha
said the highest superpower is the ability to be convinced of the 4 truths, which will enable
the meditator to wipe the defilements, one
step at a time, and to witness the arising of things dependently, world soaked
in delusion.
Pulsar does not aspire to lesser superpowers. If pulsar wants to fly,
Pulsar will buy an airline ticket. :heart:
i used to write down what i experience. I have there all kinds of jhanas and such stuff.
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discus ... ge/4476085
..
i mean by superpowers like the result of longtime practice: going through walls, flying in the air but first there should be these things come, healing for sicknesses fast, not have to eat many days straight, new teeth grow etc.
But im not sure if you can do it with this type of body, body molecules structure should be transformed accordingly or something like that.

i suggest read MCTB the phenomena descriptions of certain experiences, its worth, looks like it was for me to get to the what i thought is 4th path.

Pulsar
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:12 pm

Auto wrote
i mean by superpowers like the result of longtime practice: going through walls, flying in the air but first there should be these things come, healing for sicknesses fast, not have to eat many days straight, new teeth grow etc.
But im not sure if you can do it with this type of body, body molecules structure should be transformed accordingly or something like that
it sounds like a lot of upanishad stuff infiltrates your comment, but then you already said you background is that, unless I misremember. Pl correct me if I am wrong.
Buddha did not refer
to type of body, body molecules structure
He only spoke of the importance of right view and right intention, right effort, right sati etc in leading up to right concentration, last being the 4 fine-material jhanas.
I did not open the link. Is it the website run by the Arahant? I did check it out once, and
once was enuf for me. I prefer a website owned by a non-arahant. :)

auto
Posts: 1096
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:36 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:12 pm
Auto wrote
i mean by superpowers like the result of longtime practice: going through walls, flying in the air but first there should be these things come, healing for sicknesses fast, not have to eat many days straight, new teeth grow etc.
But im not sure if you can do it with this type of body, body molecules structure should be transformed accordingly or something like that
it sounds like a lot of upanishad stuff infiltrates your comment, but then you already said you background is that, unless I misremember. Pl correct me if I am wrong.
Buddha did not refer
to type of body, body molecules structure
He only spoke of the importance of right view and right intention, right effort, right sati etc in leading up to right concentration, last being the 4 fine-material jhanas.
I did not open the link. Is it the website run by the Arahant? I did check it out once, and
once was enuf for me. I prefer a website owned by a non-arahant. :)
a question
when you are at 4th jhana or gone through 4th jhana do you start see the possibility of superpowers, like flying in the air etc, so also how you could even get to that point of being able to fly(what are the requirements)? or you think you just can fly when get the relevant knowledge?

its in Sutta. At 4th jhana you can get the knowledge, so i was wondering if you know how to understand it.
+
funny how you mention 6th power, removing of defilements. So how you remove them?
+
you gonna say about noble truths and 8 fold path, hmm i don't know what these are, i haven't learnt them by heart.

edit: you said
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:03 pm
Pulsar does not aspire to lesser superpowers. If pulsar wants to fly,
Pulsar will buy an airline ticket.
it answers my questions. I read it but it didn't reach my brain. So no need to answer., i'm done here.

Pulsar
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:57 am

IN MN 122 Mahasunnata sutta. Buddha admonishes
Ananda one does not shine by delighting in company, by delighting in society, by rejoicing in society. For such a one, it is not possible to obtain at will, without trouble or difficulty, the bliss of renunciation, the bliss of peace, the bliss of enlightenment. He will not enter upon and abide in either the deliverance of mind, that is temporary and delectable, or in the deliverance of mind that is perpetual and unshakeable
Jhanas themselves are not states of enlightenment. Jhana as nekkhamma sukkha, yields the bliss of renouncing sensual pleasures. Jhana, as paviveka sukka yields the bliss of being secluded, from the crowd, and from defilements. Jhana as upasama sukkha yields the bliss for the purpose of quieting defilements.
I do not see even a single kind of form, Ananda, from the change of which and alteration of which there would not arise sorrow, pain, in one who lusts for it, and takes delight in it
However Ananda, there is this abiding discovered by the Tathagata; to enter and abide in voidness internally by giving no attention to all signs
Voidness internally is that connected with one's own five aggregates, voidness externally as that connected with aggregates of others. This is a temporary deliverance of mind reached through insight contemplation of non-self. :candle:

Pulsar
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:50 pm

This story is very much related to jhana meditation.
The Kimsuka Tree SN 35.45 Kimsuka means "what if", that itself is kind of a puzzle. 
Sutta refers to the wisdom gained through jhana meditation, but on the first glance it does not appear to be clearly so.
In the sutta, four men describe the Kimsuka tree just as they've seen it, but in four different ways.
Four bhikkhus who attained Arahantship describe the purification of their vision, just as they've seen it, but in four different ways, when asked.
First monk
"Friend, when a monk truly understands the origin and ending of the six spheres of contact, at that point their vision is well purified.”
 
Second monk
Friend, when a monk truly understands the origin and ending of the five grasping aggregates, at that point their vision is well purified
 
Third monk
Friend, when a monk truly understands the origin and ending of the four primary elements, at that point their vision is well purified
Forth monk
Friend, when a monk truly understands that everything that has a beginning has an end, at that point their vision is well purified 
Then this questioner not satisfied with the monks' answers approach the Buddha, repeats the answers and asked in which way is one's vision purified. Buddha says to him
suppose there was a man who had never seen a kimsuka tree, might see it, for the first time. Based on the time he sees it, his answer would vary from "blackish like a charred stump" (at the time buds are sprouting) "reddish like a piece of meat" (at the time of blossoming)  "tree has strips of bark hanging down and burst pods" (when bearing fruit) " gives abundant shade" (when covered with leaves)So too bhikkhu those superior men answered as they were disposed in just the way, their own vision had been well purified

Then the Blessed One gives a second metaphor, to the newbie bhikkhu. Why?
If that bhikkhu understood the Kimsuka simile then it is relied upon to teach him the Dhmma. If he did not understand it, then the simile of the city is introduced to clarify the meaning.
The metaphor in the sutta itself is too brief to be helpful, here is the one from the BB footnotes.
The lord of the city is a prince, son of a virtuous world monarch, who had been appointed by his father to administer one of the outlying provinces. Under the influence of bad friends the prince had been dissolute and passed his time drinking and enjoying music and dance. The king sent the two messengers to admonish the prince to abandon his heedless ways and resume his duties. One messenger is a brave warrior the other a wise minister. The brave warrior grabs hold of the wayward prince by the head and threatens to decapitate him if he does not change his ways, this is like the time mind has been grabbed and made motionless by concentration arisen through first jhana, the fleeing of the prince's dissolute friends is like the disappearance of the five hindrances when the first jhana has arisen. When the minister delivers the king's command, this is like the time when the meditator, with his mind made pliable through concentration develops insight meditation. When the two messengers raised the white canopy over the prince after he has become coronated, this is like the time the white canopy of liberation is raised over the meditator after he has attained  arahanttship by means of serenity and insight

Interestingly, this metaphor reminds me of an even more apt metaphor used in the Expositor/Atthasalini, to explain the jhanas, it is the one metaphor, that conveys the urgent need for
jhana meditation, most efficiently.
It woke me up to the importance of jhanas, so I am copying this more lame metaphor from BB foot notes of Kimsuka sutta, in case it helps some one. The other one is way too long, but if anyone wants the
page numbers pl ask. It can be found online.
The point of the Kimsuka story, there is more than one way to get to Nibbana, but they all need to go via Right concentration. :heart:

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests