Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Pulsar
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Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:12 am

Jhana as a tool of ekayana, some sweep jhana aside as too difficult, and use negative terms such as 'jhana clingers', for those who practice this path of ekayana.
But the 4 rupa jhanas, when rightly practiced, constitute the 8th factor of noble Path. If one rejects these, by calling these special attainments, is it not a rejection of the noble Path?
I find it more difficult to maintain right speech at all times, as indicated in MN 117, I falter more there, than with my practice of jhana. How about yours?
Which attainment do you find easier? We all know that if we abstain from either of these, we are also not following the Noble Path. I like to hear from those that do not reject MN 117, because for me this is the one sutta that expounds the Noble Path to its end, defining each factor with great clarity, starting from right view, ending with right knowledge and right liberation. Again what is easier for you? Right speech or right concentration?
:candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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one_awakening
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Re: Jhana

Post by one_awakening » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:16 am

Pulsar wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:12 am
But the 4 rupa jhanas, when rightly practiced, constitute the 8th factor of noble Path. If one rejects these, by calling these special attainments, is it not a rejection of the noble Path?
Yes. I agree. Some people say you don't need the Jhanas. It's the eight factor!
“You only lose what you cling to”

sunnat
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Re: Jhana

Post by sunnat » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:24 am

The jhanas along with all other steps on the path are anicca. They are attained by practice as a matter of course, not by seeking them. Seeking them with any craving is walking in the wrong direction. They come and pass away. When they come, just observe, don't become attached. Don't be attached in the first place.

SarathW
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Re: Jhana

Post by SarathW » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:27 am

To qualify as Sama Samadhi, you have to practice the whole path in conjunction with right view.
If you attain Jhana without right view it is not Samma Samadhi.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

budo
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Re: Jhana

Post by budo » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:37 am

Jhanas are both easy and hard at the same time.

If you're at a point in your life where nothing gives you gratification, then jhanas are very easy to slip into.

If you're at a point in your life where you're chasing stimulation or stressed from work, then getting into jhana is nearly impossible.

Lifestyle (or right livelihood) has a huge impact on attaining jhanas. I find that if I'm not busy, and I'm not working for a long stretch of time, and I'm more likely to be unstimulated (bored) then jhanas come easy. If I'm busy, or an addiction cycle has begun (work/chore -> stress/tiredness -> escaping stress/tiredness via sensual desire) then jhanas are nearly impossible to get into.

SarathW
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Re: Jhana

Post by SarathW » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:42 am

I'm more likely to be unstimulated (bored) then jhanas come easy.
Isn't this a hindrance?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

budo
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Re: Jhana

Post by budo » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:02 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:42 am
I'm more likely to be unstimulated (bored) then jhanas come easy.
Isn't this a hindrance?
Only if it arises during meditation. If one is bored (of sensual desires) and then decides to meditate, and no sensual cravings arise, then there is no hindrance present.

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DooDoot
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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:25 am

Jhana as a fantasy of egoism for some clinging to overestimation; the tanhanic need to be someone, to boastfully achieve something, to construct a self. Not even having the mental composure & focus to clearly read the posts of another, not even free from sloth & lust & sexualized needs for touchy feeling, they claim jhana is easy, because, similar to imaging winning the Lottery, to imagine jhana is easy. Lost in the worst of false speech, lost in deluded conceit, puthujjana not recognising what is Noble. Where do they come from? From which planet? :shrug: What is real is none of the famous self-declared jhana clingers of Drama Wheeze have even come close to jhana. Jhana is difficult for most. To expect others to attain jhana is the talk of fools. :ugeek:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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budo
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Re: Jhana

Post by budo » Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:18 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:25 am
Jhana as a fantasy of egoism for some clinging to overestimation; the tanhanic need to be someone, to boastfully achieve something, to construct a self. Not even having the mental composure & focus to clearly read the posts of another, not even free from sloth & lust & sexualized needs for touchy feeling, they claim jhana is easy, because, similar to imaging winning the Lottery, to imagine jhana is easy. Lost in the worst of false speech, lost in deluded conceit, puthujjana not recognising what is Noble. Where do they come from? From which planet? :shrug: What is real is none of the famous self-declared jhana clingers of Drama Wheeze have even come close to jhana. Jhana is difficult for most. To expect others to attain jhana is the talk of fools. :ugeek:
Hi DooDoot,

I recommend you read Bhikkhu Buddhadasa's book on Anapansati and attaining Jhana
Some of you may be wondering whether this will be difficult or easy to do. That is something we cannot tell you. But we can say that it will not be difficult if the method is practiced correctly. If you have been listening carefully, then you will understand the proper way to do this practice. If you follow the technique correctly, it will not be very difficult. You might even finish in a short time. If you do not practice according to the method, then it may be very difficult. You might never finish. It could take three days for some, three weeks for others, three months for some, or even three years. Who can say?
https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhik ... athing.htm

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Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:55 pm

To attain the first jhana, it is necessary to develop the mind at the level of brahmas, it is not achieved by concentration alone, the mind must be clear of obstructions: from malice, fear, thirst for sensual pleasures etc., and not for the time of formal meditation, but 24/7. One sensual or evil thought can close access to a jhana for a long time. Jhana is practically the final of the Way. The one who has mastered the jhana can only clear the mind of the kilesa and then reach nibbana.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

Laurens
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Re: Jhana

Post by Laurens » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:25 pm

I think there are truths to both sides of the argument.

I don't have any doubt that Jhanas constitute part of the Noble Eightfold Path.

However as someone who heard about them early on in my meditation practice, I spent a lot of time trying to get them. Which just leads to vexation. So those who say you should not pursue them are correct. It's not that they don't constitute part of the path, but that it is easy to fixate on them to the detriment of your overall practice. So saying we should ignore them has an element of wisdom to it.

When I would meditate and develop a degree of stillness, desire for jhana ends that pretty rapidly. I wind up thinking "oh I feel very calm and there is lots of piti present here I go let's get into the jhanas" then it's lost because I'm thinking instead of meditating.

As for your question about right speech versus right concentration. I find regulating speech harder than concentrating during meditation, but I also never have had any experience of jhana.
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

2600htz
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Re: Jhana

Post by 2600htz » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:10 pm

Hello:

Like you said, there is no question that jhana is the right path.
The big problem with jhana is that it is easy to misrepresent what a jhana actually is, i mean stadistically speaking if 100 people think they are doing jhana, maybe 5 of those 100 are really following the instructions and experiencing what the Buddha was talking about. If those other 95 people are just doing "meditation" and not the rest of the path, maybe they are not practicing any of the path, and that is the danger.

About right speech vs right concentration, i would go that they are conjoined. If a person is practicing right concentration, at that moment he is practicing right speech, calming the verbal fabrication, some degree of noble silence and harmonious thinking. So its the whole pack.

Regards.

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DooDoot
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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:27 pm

budo wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:18 pm
I recommend you read Bhikkhu Buddhadasa's book on Anapansati and attaining Jhana
The 1st dhamma book I ever read. I bought it near the gate of his monastery for 70 baht, then walked a short distance up a small incline, then noticed a fat monk sitting on a chair looking at me with sparkling bright eyes through the bushes, as I turned towards him, walked past him and to the monastery administration desk. I read the book that day.
budo wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:18 pm
Some of you may be wondering whether this will be difficult or easy to do. That is something we cannot tell you.
Buddhadasa claims he cannot tell you. But trust me. Thousands of people listened to Buddhadasa and read or tried to read that book but the vast majority did not attain jhana.
budo wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:18 pm
But we can say that it will not be difficult if the method is practiced correctly. If you have been listening carefully, then you will understand the proper way to do this practice. If you follow the technique correctly, it will not be very difficult. You might even finish in a short time. If you do not practice according to the method, then it may be very difficult. You might never finish. It could take three days for some, three weeks for others, three months for some, or even three years. Who can say?
Unlikely Buddhadhasa is speaking about "jhana" above. Regardless, the book does not teach the "proper way to practise". The "techniques" mentioned in the book, such as the Five Skillful Trick", are Visuddhimagga stuff and bring limited results. You sound like our recent visitor named "phillyy", who was a disciple of Ajahn Buddhadasa yet seemed to know very little about Dhamma. At the very most, I imagine the following in the book applies to your claims to "jhana": :roll:
When the feelings piti and sukha are strong enough for the mind to feel them clearly, this is sufficient concentration to be able to go on to step five. If you enter the first, second, third, and fourth rupa-jhana that is more splendid yet. But samadhi sufficient to experience piti and sukha distinctly is enough for step four. (90)

If we calm the kaya-sankhara (body-conditioner) to the extent of jhana (the first jhana and so forth), then piti and sukha will be full and complete as factors of jhana. Nevertheless, if we are unable to reach jhana and are able only to calm the body-conditioner partially, there is likely to be a degree of piti and sukha proportionate to the extent of that calming. Thus, even those who are unable to bring about jhana can still manage enough piti and sukha to practice these steps. (94)


https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhik ... athing.htm
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Nwad
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Re: Jhana

Post by Nwad » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:24 am

I think we think Upacara Samadhi to be Jhana, or Apana Samadhi to be Jhana, but Ajahn Martin said that Some great monks needed 17 years of hard practice in caves to attain Jhanas... Unless you developed it in previous lives, but it seems to me impossible while keeping only 5 precepts and keeping sensual stimulations or work. I can mistake. I used to believe Upacara Samadhi and Spans Samadhi to be Jhana, but I need to confess my misunderstanding of jhana... :strawman:

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DooDoot
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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:44 am

Nwad wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:24 am
I think we think Upacara Samadhi to be Jhana...
Indeed. Personally, I even doubt the Self-Declared Drama Wheeze Jhana Masters have developed Upacara Samadhi. But Upacara Samadhi itself is said to be quite lofty and naturally, as Ajahn Buddhadasa has explained, can give rise to more than sufficient piti & sukha for hardcore anatta insight. Since the suttas (eg. SN 36.11) say the 1st jhana silences speech, its always difficult to believe the jhana claims of those that cannot stop talking about their ideas of "personal jhana". :ugeek:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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