How to see dependent origination in meditation?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
pegembara
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Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: How to see dependent origination in meditation?

Post by pegembara » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:57 am

sentinel wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:05 pm
pegembara wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:22 pm


Consciousness is released from clinging and at that time becomes aware of the deathless/unconditioned or takes nibbana as an object. It experiences nibbana.

There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
Is there a state called nibbana , if not how does nibbana became an object of awareness ? Isn't that contradicting .
What do you mean?
States of fear, joy etc are objects/dhamma.
Nibbana is also an object.

You are always aware of something(object) even if that object is nothingness/voidness etc.
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

sentinel
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Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: How to see dependent origination in meditation?

Post by sentinel » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:28 am

pegembara wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:57 am
What do you mean?
States of fear, joy etc are objects/dhamma.
Nibbana is also an object.

You are always aware of something(object) even if that object is nothingness/voidness etc.
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned
Precisely , how birth and unborn were linked appears contradictory .
:coffee:

pegembara
Posts: 1563
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: How to see dependent origination in meditation?

Post by pegembara » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:36 am

sentinel wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:28 am
pegembara wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:57 am
What do you mean?
States of fear, joy etc are objects/dhamma.
Nibbana is also an object.

You are always aware of something(object) even if that object is nothingness/voidness etc.
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned
Precisely , how birth and unborn were linked appears contradictory .
How so?
Hot/cold, old/young, smart/dumb, front/back, above/below are linked but doesn't appear contradictory, just different.

The conditioned are subject to arising, changing and passing away. The unconditioned doesn't.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

budo
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am

Re: How to see dependent origination in meditation?

Post by budo » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:50 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:29 pm
budo wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:04 pm
tamdrin wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:03 pm
You can't analyze anything if your actually in jhana, from what I've read. That comes after you come out.
Not according to the suttas that were posted on the first page of this thread.
Of course, that's one of these controversial points.
Bhikkhu Analayo, for example, has a nice discussion of the various view-points with lots of sutta references:
viewtopic.php?t=34549&start=15#p516030

:heart:
Mike
Yep. Also if you listen to Ayya Khema's talks or read Gunaratana's books, both over the course of their lives shifted away from Vissudhimagga definitions and moved towards sutta based jhanas.

I was listening to Ayya Khema's talk yesterday from 1990 and she says one should focus on the impermenent characteristic of jhana fading out when one is ready to come out.

So not "after" you've gone out, but as you're going out.

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mikenz66
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Re: How to see dependent origination in meditation?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:07 am

budo wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:50 am
Yep. Also if you listen to Ayya Khema's talks or read Gunaratana's books, both over the course of their lives shifted away from Vissudhimagga definitions and moved towards sutta based jhanas.
I think the terms "Visuddhimagga Jhana" and "Sutta Jhana" are rather confusing, since interpreters such as Ven Analayo are basing their deep-absorption interpretations on the suttas. They are just reading them differently from the interpreters who favour the lighter (so-called "sutta") jhana interpretation, that you are taking as read in the OP, where the observation of rise-and-fall while still in jhana is said to be possible.

We have a whole thread on jhana interpretations: viewtopic.php?f=43&t=4597 so I probably should not derail your thread. However, what practical difference would it make whether you consider the rise-and-fall observations to be "during" or "while exiting and entering" jhana? Or if the lighter interpretation turned out to be a misinterpretation of the far-from-insignificant "momentary concentration" of the so-called "dry" insight approach as jhana?

:heart:
Mike

budo
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am

Re: How to see dependent origination in meditation?

Post by budo » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:00 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:07 am
. However, what practical difference would it make whether you consider the rise-and-fall observations to be "during" or "while exiting and entering" jhana? Or if the lighter interpretation turned out to be a misinterpretation of the far-from-insignificant "momentary concentration" of the so-called "dry" insight approach as jhana?

:heart:
Mike
From my experience, when I first attained jhana I would indulge in it completely, and the buzz or afterglow afterwards would last sometimes a whole day.

With repetition the novelty effect wore away and so did my desire for it, and so my attention would not grasp as hard to it, and the after glow would not last as long. When my attention did not grasp as hard, once I got my "sukkha" fix and dukkha subsided, I would start moving my attention to the fourth satipathana, contemplating the dhanma.

Not having intention to delight in that jhana, I moved my attention to the dhamma, when my attention moved to the dhamma, the jhana factors are no longer being fed, in this way I was contemplating the dhamma, specifically impermanence, while observing the factors subside at the same time.

Intention and Attention are also two properties of Nama, of nama-rupa in dependent origination.

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