How to see dependent origination in meditation?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
tamdrin
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Re: How to see dependent origination in meditation?

Post by tamdrin » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:54 am

Akashad wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:46 am
tamdrin wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:06 am

Where can I get this book? I'm interested in the Pa Auk tradition. The head monk seems very knowledgable.
I got it from here.

https://wisdomexperience.org/product/sa ... vipassana/

This is from the chapter : Meditation on Dependant Origination.Its about how you link the past life causes to your present life.How one life links to another.You see it so clearly that you won't doubt cause and effect ever again.Tracing dependent origination over and over again.

All eight jhanas and all 40 meditation object are developed in this case,i have never heard of anyone tracing dependent origination in this capacity (seeing the five aggregates) with only first jhana.

The author who is a psychiatrist meditated his entire adult life and never had jhana form until one day in his sixties decided he had to go,he retired or closed up his practice he went to pa Auk monastery stayed there for over a year.He mentioned in the end how he still had a lot of work to do i'm not sure what work he's refering to, if he's still tracing DO. :shrug:

Image
Image

It's kind of funny that he is offering to teach the Pa Auk method but he is selling his book. The entire path is laid out very clearly by the Sayadaw here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qwl-bq ... 0hEdi/view

budo
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Re: How to see dependent origination in meditation?

Post by budo » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:58 am

Akashad wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:46 am
tamdrin wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:06 am

Where can I get this book? I'm interested in the Pa Auk tradition. The head monk seems very knowledgable.

The author who is a psychiatrist meditated his entire adult life and never had jhana form until one day in his sixties decided he had to go,he retired or closed up his practice he went to pa Auk monastery stayed there for over a year.He mentioned in the end how he still had a lot of work to do i'm not sure what work he's refering to, if he's still tracing DO. :shrug:
The problem with Pau Auk is that it's based on seeing "Kalapa" (Atoms) which is something not found in the suttas but an abhdidhamma/visuddhimagga teaching.

In the Kimsuka Sutta it talks about seeing the 4 great elements, not Kalapas and that you don't even need to see these 4 elements, you only need to see the arising and passing away of any object with jhanic concentration.

So as far as I'm concerned the Buddha didn't teach this stuff, like seeing kalapas, as it's a later invention. Pau Auk claims that the Buddha taught to see kalapas in the space element, but I can't find a sutta source for that.

Also if my memory serves me right Pau Auk claims you need to see kalapas to see karma, which is also not found in the suttas.

tamdrin
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Re: How to see dependent origination in meditation?

Post by tamdrin » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:03 pm

budo wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:31 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:26 am
It depends what you mean by "Seeing" dependent origination. For example when I walk past the ice-cream freezer in the supermarket, Im aware of craving - does that count? :tongue:
No, because I already stated the preconditions in the OP, such as being in jhana.
You can't analyze anything if your actually in jhana, from what I've read. That comes after you come out.

budo
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Re: How to see dependent origination in meditation?

Post by budo » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:04 pm

tamdrin wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:03 pm
budo wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:31 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:26 am
It depends what you mean by "Seeing" dependent origination. For example when I walk past the ice-cream freezer in the supermarket, Im aware of craving - does that count? :tongue:
No, because I already stated the preconditions in the OP, such as being in jhana.
You can't analyze anything if your actually in jhana, from what I've read. That comes after you come out.
Not according to the suttas that were posted on the first page of this thread.

tamdrin
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Re: How to see dependent origination in meditation?

Post by tamdrin » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:06 pm

budo wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:58 am
Akashad wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:46 am
tamdrin wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:06 am

Where can I get this book? I'm interested in the Pa Auk tradition. The head monk seems very knowledgable.

The author who is a psychiatrist meditated his entire adult life and never had jhana form until one day in his sixties decided he had to go,he retired or closed up his practice he went to pa Auk monastery stayed there for over a year.He mentioned in the end how he still had a lot of work to do i'm not sure what work he's refering to, if he's still tracing DO. :shrug:
The problem with Pau Auk is that it's based on seeing "Kalapa" (Atoms) which is something not found in the suttas but an abhdidhamma/visuddhimagga teaching.

In the Kimsuka Sutta it talks about seeing the 4 great elements, not Kalapas and that you don't even need to see these 4 elements, you only need to see the arising and passing away of any object with jhanic concentration.

So as far as I'm concerned the Buddha didn't teach this stuff, like seeing kalapas, as it's a later invention. Pau Auk claims that the Buddha taught to see kalapas in the space element, but I can't find a sutta source for that.

Also if my memory serves me right Pau Auk claims you need to see kalapas to see karma, which is also not found in the suttas.

There are many ways possibly, budo, try not to be a sutta fundamentalist. I don't know about that stuff about atoms but the Sayadaw seems to be a very good teacher. At least he has inspired many people to reach access concentration or jhana. Then the method of insight you use will be open for discovery (once you get to that point)

budo
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Re: How to see dependent origination in meditation?

Post by budo » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:11 pm

tamdrin wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:06 pm
budo wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:58 am
Akashad wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:46 am



The author who is a psychiatrist meditated his entire adult life and never had jhana form until one day in his sixties decided he had to go,he retired or closed up his practice he went to pa Auk monastery stayed there for over a year.He mentioned in the end how he still had a lot of work to do i'm not sure what work he's refering to, if he's still tracing DO. :shrug:
The problem with Pau Auk is that it's based on seeing "Kalapa" (Atoms) which is something not found in the suttas but an abhdidhamma/visuddhimagga teaching.

In the Kimsuka Sutta it talks about seeing the 4 great elements, not Kalapas and that you don't even need to see these 4 elements, you only need to see the arising and passing away of any object with jhanic concentration.

So as far as I'm concerned the Buddha didn't teach this stuff, like seeing kalapas, as it's a later invention. Pau Auk claims that the Buddha taught to see kalapas in the space element, but I can't find a sutta source for that.

Also if my memory serves me right Pau Auk claims you need to see kalapas to see karma, which is also not found in the suttas.

There are many ways possibly, budo, try not to be a sutta fundamentalist. I don't know about that stuff about atoms but the Sayadaw seems to be a very good teacher. At least he has inspired many people to reach access concentration or jhana. Then the method of insight you use will be open for discovery (once you get to that point)
Don't confuse attaining jhanas with insight. His method of attaining jhanas may or may not be correct, I don't know, but it doesn't mean that one needs to see the space element or kalapas

As for "sutta fundamentalist", if you want to discuss whether or not people should follow the suttas, then you should create another thread about that.

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Akashad
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Re: How to see dependent origination in meditation?

Post by Akashad » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:14 pm

You can get the free version Pa Auk Sayadaw's books.Its basically the same thing only this is his own personal experience :"A meditators experience"that's the title.The Sayadaw's in his books is not talking about his personal experience just laying out instructions.So it can be very dry reading especially the abhiddhamma stuff i mean i don't personally find it hard to read but it seems more technical than reading a journal or diary or personal account of someone meditation experience or retreat experience. Its quite difficult for me to find anyone whose meditated in pa auk monastery who has written a book about it especially ones who have practised this deeply so i felt deeply grateful to the author for sharing.
budo wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:58 am


The problem with Pau Auk is that it's based on seeing "Kalapa" (Atoms) which is something not found in the suttas but an abhdidhamma/visuddhimagga teaching.

In the Kimsuka Sutta it talks about seeing the 4 great elements, not Kalapas and that you don't even need to see these 4 elements, you only need to see the arising and passing away of any object with jhanic concentration.

So as far as I'm concerned the Buddha didn't teach this stuff, like seeing kalapas, as it's a later invention. Pau Auk claims that the Buddha taught to see kalapas in the space element, but I can't find a sutta source for that.

Also if my memory serves me right Pau Auk claims you need to see kalapas to see karma, which is also not found in the suttas.
Yes there's seems to be two different authorities on jhanas or what constitutes jhanas unfortunately for people who can perceive nimittas and kalapas your going to have a really hard time convincing them otherwise.To each their own.People realise enlightenment through different paths.Some people don't even need all this tracing dependent origination or jhana business just hearing on or two phrases from a Buddha is enough to attain sottapana.

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Akashad
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Re: How to see dependent origination in meditation?

Post by Akashad » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:15 pm

duplicate error.
Last edited by Akashad on Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

budo
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Re: How to see dependent origination in meditation?

Post by budo » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:15 pm

Akashad wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:14 pm
budo wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:58 am


The problem with Pau Auk is that it's based on seeing "Kalapa" (Atoms) which is something not found in the suttas but an abhdidhamma/visuddhimagga teaching.

In the Kimsuka Sutta it talks about seeing the 4 great elements, not Kalapas and that you don't even need to see these 4 elements, you only need to see the arising and passing away of any object with jhanic concentration.

So as far as I'm concerned the Buddha didn't teach this stuff, like seeing kalapas, as it's a later invention. Pau Auk claims that the Buddha taught to see kalapas in the space element, but I can't find a sutta source for that.

Also if my memory serves me right Pau Auk claims you need to see kalapas to see karma, which is also not found in the suttas.
Yes there's seems to be two different authorities on jhanas or what constitutes jhanas unfortunately for people who can perceive nimittas and kalapas your going to have a really hard time convincing them otherwise.To each their own.People realise enlightenment through different paths.Some people don't even need all this tracing dependent origination or jhana business just hearing on or two phrases from a Buddha is enough to attain sottapana.
This has nothing to do with nimittas which is supported by the suttas, and also has nothing to do with jhanas, it has to do with vipassana (contemplating the dhamma to see dependent origination). It's best that you clear up these concepts for yourself, before commenting on how to see dependent origination.

pegembara
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Re: How to see dependent origination in meditation?

Post by pegembara » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:22 pm

sentinel wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:14 am

How do you explain
" consciousness is being released ?

What is nibbana to you ? A state ?
Does the consciousness aware of the nibbana ?
Consciousness is released from clinging and at that time becomes aware of the deathless/unconditioned or takes nibbana as an object. It experiences nibbana.
"Then, householder, you should train yourself in this way: 'I won't cling to this world; my consciousness will not be dependent on this world... I won't cling to the world beyond; my consciousness will not be dependent on the world beyond.' That's how you should train yourself.

"Then, householder, you should train yourself in this way: 'I won't cling to what is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect; my consciousness will not be dependent on that.' That's how you should train yourself."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "One attached is unreleased; one unattached is released. Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to (a physical) form, supported by form (as its object),[1] landing on form, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

"Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to feeling, supported by feeling (as its object), landing on feeling, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

"Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to perception, supported by perception (as its object), landing on perception, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

"Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to fabrications, supported by fabrications (as its object), landing on fabrications, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
When consciousness does not arise , would it be
Possible to experience anything ?
When consciousness does not arise, one is either truly dead or in the state of cessation of perception and feeling.
"When this body lacks these three qualities — vitality, heat, & consciousness — it lies discarded & forsaken like a senseless log."

"What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, & his faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

sentinel
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Re: How to see dependent origination in meditation?

Post by sentinel » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:05 pm

pegembara wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:22 pm


Consciousness is released from clinging and at that time becomes aware of the deathless/unconditioned or takes nibbana as an object. It experiences nibbana.

There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
Is there a state called nibbana , if not how does nibbana became an object of awareness ? Isn't that contradicting .
:buddha1:

Dinsdale
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Re: How to see dependent origination in meditation?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:47 pm

budo wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:31 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:26 am
It depends what you mean by "Seeing" dependent origination. For example when I walk past the ice-cream freezer in the supermarket, Im aware of craving - does that count? :tongue:
No, because I already stated the preconditions in the OP, such as being in jhana.
OK. I'd tend to associate insight into DO more with sati than with samadhi, though I can see its not a straightforward question. Is dhamma vicaya not relevant here?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

budo
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Re: How to see dependent origination in meditation?

Post by budo » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:10 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:47 pm
budo wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:31 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:26 am
It depends what you mean by "Seeing" dependent origination. For example when I walk past the ice-cream freezer in the supermarket, Im aware of craving - does that count? :tongue:
No, because I already stated the preconditions in the OP, such as being in jhana.
OK. I'd tend to associate insight into DO more with sati than with samadhi, though I can see its not a straightforward question. Is dhamma vicaya not relevant here?
Yes it is relevant. Doesn't mean there are no preconditions :)

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DooDoot
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Re: How to see dependent origination in meditation?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:43 pm

budo wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:31 am
No, because I already stated the preconditions in the OP, such as being in jhana.
The suttas already stated the preconditions different to the OP. SN 12.28 appears to say a "trainee" can see dependent origination. Yet the suttas appear to also say jhana wastes the five lower fetters. Thus obviously a "stream-enterer" does not generally have jhana.
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:26 am
It depends what you mean by "Seeing" dependent origination. For example when I walk past the ice-cream freezer in the supermarket, Im aware of craving - does that count?
If the arising of the "I" is not seen then it probably does not count. Refer to SN 12.12.
"Who, O Lord, craves?"

"The question is not correct," said the Exalted One. "I do not say that 'he craves.' Had I said so, then the question 'Who craves?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be 'What is the condition of craving?' And to that the correct reply is: 'Feeling is the condition of craving, and craving is the condition of clinging.'"

SN 12.12
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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mikenz66
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Re: How to see dependent origination in meditation?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:29 pm

budo wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:04 pm
tamdrin wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:03 pm
You can't analyze anything if your actually in jhana, from what I've read. That comes after you come out.
Not according to the suttas that were posted on the first page of this thread.
Of course, that's one of these controversial points.
Bhikkhu Analayo, for example, has a nice discussion of the various view-points with lots of sutta references:
viewtopic.php?t=34549&start=15#p516030

:heart:
Mike

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