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Re: 3rd and 4th Jhana as an equanimous look at the world?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:45 am
by Pondera
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:12 am
Pondera wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:27 am
So, I see a contradiction here with this style of jhana and MN 111. Do you not?
“‘Then, lord, being conscious & awake when the rain-deva was raining, the rain-deva was pouring, lightning-streaks were shooting out, and a thunderbolt split (the air), you neither saw anything nor heard a sound.’

“‘Yes, friend.’
Quite so; however:
"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another.

... the second jhana: ... perception

... the third jhana: ... perception

... the fourth .... the infinitude of space ... the infinitude of consciousness ... the dimension of nothingness ... perception

Re: 3rd and 4th Jhana as an equanimous look at the world?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:07 am
by mikenz66
Pondera wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:45 am
"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. ...
Yes, this is a disputed point, which has been discussed here quite a lot.

There is a discussion in Bhikkhu Analayo's book, Early Buddhist Meditation Studies, which you can download here: https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... alayo.html
No matter which side of the dispute one is on, the collection of references and arguments is useful.

From page 118:
This discourse [MN111] has regularly been quoted in support of the
ability to contemplate the impermanent nature of the mental
constituents of an absorption while being in the actual attain-
ment. ...
The discussion goes on for several pages. His main conclusion is:
So when these states have not yet come into being or disap-
pear, a practitioner inevitably is not yet or no longer in the ab-
sorption, simply because the absorption lasts only as long as
all of the mental qualities that characterize it are fully present.
Therefore to observe the arising of these mental qualities and
their disappearance could only happen before an absorption is
attained or after the attainment has come to an end.
:heart:
Mike

Re: 3rd and 4th Jhana as an equanimous look at the world?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:58 am
by DooDoot
Pondera wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:45 am
perception
perception
perception
Hi. Are you saying "perception" ("sanna") is "thinking" ("vitakka")? Thanks

Re: 3rd and 4th Jhana as an equanimous look at the world?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:11 pm
by Pondera
Thanks, Mike.

Hi DooDoot. No. I don’t believe perception is thinking and I’m not opposed to your interpretation of what vittaka is in this style of jhana.

Re: 3rd and 4th Jhana as an equanimous look at the world?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:38 pm
by Sam Vara
pyluyten wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:10 pm

Gombrich, would have the same view. I have only one short excerpt
I know this is controversial, but it seems to me that the third and fourth jhanas are thus quite unlike the second
The whole essay is here:
https://www.academia.edu/15576816/Religious_experience

and there is an abridged and chattier audio version here:
https://www.ochs.org.uk/lectures/religi ... y-buddhism

Re: 3rd and 4th Jhana as an equanimous look at the world?

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:44 pm
by pyluyten
Thanks much.
I've just had a look a few pages, but i will soon enjoy it ! It sounds a very surprising argument but i want to leverage it as something constructive