Page 2 of 3

Re: Advice on tactile "nimittas", and how best to use them?

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:37 am
by AdvaitaJ
Kenshou wrote: I can't really say though yet what "works", since I have no idea if I've gotten to jhana yet. I get to points where focus becomes very strong, piti and sukha are so strong that they almost seem to drown out the defined position of the body, and the the fuzzy-head/face-pressure-nimitta-thing that is powered by the breath seems to start to envelop/draw in my awareness (though mindfulness of the breath -still- remains at the peak of it all). It really feels pretty interesting, but I'm hesitant to claim that it's a jhana. Certainly feels like it could be close, though, maybe.
Kenshou,

When you attain the first jhana, there won't be any doubt about it. I think Ajahn Brahm and Catherine both mention the "bounce" that is possible from the intensity of the sensation. Also remember their advice about holding on to the breath too tightly. A hard and fast "grip" on the breath is counterproductive. I believe it's necessary to maintain resolve over time, pay attention to what works and what doesn't, and expect to "burn through" more than a few sittings simply experimenting.

Regards: AdvaitaJ

Re: Advice on tactile "nimittas", and how best to use them?

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:58 am
by Kenshou
AdvaitaJ-
Also remember their advice about holding on to the breath too tightly. A hard and fast "grip" on the breath is counterproductive.
True, I do try to avoid that. I allow the sensations to grow and push their way further into dominance nautrally, but I've yet to come to a point where they become strong enough, strong as they may feel, that I can allow them to fully take dominance over the breath and not topple down shortly. But practice makes perfect.
expect to "burn through" more than a few sittings simply experimenting.
Yeah, no doubt about that.

Re: Advice on tactile "nimittas", and how best to use them?

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:23 pm
by vitellius
Freawaru wrote:If you ask me it is a typical "energy" sensation as used in yoga. Tibetan Buddhism describes it in detail and also has specific techniques for them. One basically moves this energy (your breezy soft feeling and pressure) around the whole body, and even outside, until it all is "purified". When you start moving it you will notice that there are places that you can move it to easily and those that seem closed to it. The closed ones are so called "blocks", they need to be "purged", meaning one has to practice moving the element there, too. Full purification is reached when not only your head is filled with "air" but the whole body and then the whole world around.
Hello Freawaru,

Can you please tell me, where did you learn this from? Is it from a certain book or instructions of a certain Tibetan teacher?

Re: Advice on tactile "nimittas", and how best to use them?

Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:16 pm
by Freawaru
Hello Oleksandr,
Oleksandr wrote: Can you please tell me, where did you learn this from? Is it from a certain book or instructions of a certain Tibetan teacher?
Both. I learned it from a teacher, who was a student of the late Tarab Tulku Rinpoche http://www.tarab-institute.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; We practiced what the Tibetans consider preliminaries such as Tara meditation or Golden Light meditation. They are basically samatha meditation with the object a specific "energy" linked to a certain Bodhisattva such as Tara. These kind of "energy" meditation are always similar: one visualizes a light of a certain color above one's head, and then have it enter the head at the top (crown chakra) into the central channel sushumna. From there it is supposed to spread through the whole body and finally leaving it into the whole universe. The central channel sushumna is here of supreme importance. In the Tibetan lore there are the main channels Ida, Pingala and Sushumna (just like in Hatha Yoga), when the energy moves mainly through Ida and Pingala we are conceptual and emotional, when it moves through the Sushumna we are mystics.

The Sushumna plays an important role in Tibetan Buddhism. To activate and purify specific chakras such as the heart chakra is one of the main basic practices.
There are different practices presented in Sutrayana and Tantrayana to purify mind’s obscurations. And the purpose of meditating White Tara is to purify one’s mind of the conceptual and emotional veils that conceal its true nature.
http://www.rinpoche.com/teachings/whitetara.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As to books I can recommend books by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche (technically he is Bön but the whole energy lore is identical to what Tarab Tuluk Rinpoche taught as far as I can tell.) It is also described in detail in the book "Clear Light of Bliss" by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (from the Kadampa linage, just as HH Dalai Lama) but I am not sure if I can recommend it as of late there have been differences between HHDL and Geshe Gyatso - still, I expect that these basics remain the same.

Re: Advice on tactile "nimittas", and how best to use them?

Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:24 pm
by Freawaru
Hi Dmytro,

thank you for the quote and the link. I also read chapter 7, a good read. I will go through the rest later. :D
I think this is something I was getting confused about at first. The air element itself isn't the object, the feeling of the air-contact is. (don't know if those are the same thing)
In Sri Lanka, the traditional samatha practice is well preserved, and you can find in the book by Ven.Dhammajiva, In This Very Life, on page 23, the appropriate focus of attention for samatha practice - air element.

http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/dha ... /index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yes - and I will have some more questions (as usual :P ). But I think the question was more whether the sensation IS the element or just the sensation of the element. Ven. Dhammajiva calls it (in chapter 7) the "manifestation of the element". So I suppose one does not really discern between sensing it and an element itself. Is this right ?

Re: Advice on tactile "nimittas", and how best to use them?

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:38 am
by Assaji
Hi Freawaru,
Freawaru wrote:Yes - and I will have some more questions (as usual :P ).
You are welcome :^)
But I think the question was more whether the sensation IS the element or just the sensation of the element. Ven. Dhammajiva calls it (in chapter 7) the "manifestation of the element". So I suppose one does not really discern between sensing it and an element itself. Is this right ?
To be exact, I'll give a quote from Patisambhidamagga-Atthakatha (2.509):

Pakatiassāsapakatipassāse nissāya uppannanimittampi assāsapassāsāti nāmaṃ labhati. Upaṭṭhānaṃ satīti taṃ ārammaṇaṃ upecca tiṭṭhatīti sati upaṭṭhānaṃ nāma.

""Sati upatthana" means that sati, having approached, is established on that basis of concentration (arammana) (namely, the perceptual image (nimitta), that has emerged on the basis of inbreath and outbreath)."

Thus the element itself is known through the touch or visual appearance. The tactile sensation or visual appearance are incorporated into the perceptual image (nimitta), which serves as a basis of concentration (arammana).

The four elements are form (rupa), the tactile sensations are probably contact (phassa).

Metta, Dmytro

Re: Advice on tactile "nimittas", and how best to use them?

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:49 pm
by appicchato
I didn't wade through this entire thread, but my understanding is we don't use them at all...note them and move on...

Re: Advice on tactile "nimittas", and how best to use them?

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:48 pm
by IanAnd
I didn't wade through this entire thread, but my understanding is we don't use them at all...note them and move on...
Pleased understand that this response in no way casts a negative light on the person who delivered this message. The response is meant to address the substantive issue brought to light by the message, viz. nimittas and their use in meditation. Someone who tells others not to use them at all and to only note them and move on is doing that person a grave disservice.

Misguided advice as expressed above is an example of the kind of advice that is given in order to disrupt or preclude a person's ability to enter into absorption. If a person follows it, they likely will never understand or experience absorption. Absorption helps the mind increase its ability of concentration so that the mind can become stable, settled, and at ease in order to more easily and clearly "see what is there" in terms of its observation of phenomena, both material and immaterial.

For people learning to enter into absorption, the observation of a nimitta is there in order to help them understand where they are at in terms of their ability to induce absorption. It lets them know that they are succeeding. Because the subtle state of absorption can be, in the beginning at least, a little tricky for the novice practitioner to recognize, the nimitta helps give them a guidepost to "hold onto," so to speak, until their practice matures and they are more able to identify their entry into absorption more easily.

Re: Advice on tactile "nimittas", and how best to use them?

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 5:18 pm
by imagemarie
As a samatha practitioner of several years who experiences tactile nimitta, I think striking a balance between being observer, and being an active participant in jhana meditation, is pretty subtle stuff. It's a bit like the "objectivity" of the scientific method - impossible to abstract the contribution made by the scientist to the experiment..what is active..what is "letting go"...what is "just" observing?
I would say, FWIW, that "using" is not so much an appropriate description, as being given an alternative object to "investigate". A gift, if you like. But not one in which any investment is made. That seems to defeat the object (groan :smile: )
Again, from my perspective, it's subtle stuff - requiring a balance of active/passive processes. And no investment, clinging, craving..
"Things" have a tendency to move on, anyway. And "noting" can be more "active" :smile:

Re: Advice on tactile "nimittas", and how best to use them?

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:55 pm
by appicchato
IanAnd wrote:
I didn't wade through this entire thread, but my understanding is we don't use them at all...note them and move on...
Someone who tells others not to use them at all and to only note them and move on is doing that person a grave disservice.
I don't believe anyone told anybody to do anything...

Be well... :smile:

Re: Advice on tactile "nimittas", and how best to use them?

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:27 pm
by IanAnd
appicchato wrote:
IanAnd wrote:
I didn't wade through this entire thread, but my understanding is we don't use them at all...note them and move on...
Someone who tells others not to use them at all and to only note them and move on is doing that person a grave disservice.
I don't believe anyone told anybody to do anything...
I agree, venerable. Did you assume a reference was being made to yourself?

If so, you did yourself a disservice.

Re: Advice on tactile "nimittas", and how best to use them?

Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:06 pm
by Heaviside
I found this old thread only recently through the kind reference of someone else on the forum, and I have really been engrossed with it.

May I add my own experience? I have been practicing fairly religiously for forty-five minutes each day for about two years.

I have experienced what might be termed "flashes," or perhaps "tantalizing glimpses" of the white light nimmita specified by Ajahn Brahm. I have also, much more consistently a la Leigh Brasington, experienced warm and pleasurable sensations in both head and feet. In addition, I have---on three or four occasions---experienced what might be called "a frisson," that is, something like ectasy, shuddering, and even tears in my eyes. But I then seemed to have experienced a corresponding tension which had the effect of dropping me back out of whatever state I was in. I have experimented with relaxing my forehead muscles, and find that this induces a quite out-of-the-ordinary feeling of detachment. Since then, I have lost the thread, and my sessions seem to be ho-hum and highly nonproductive. Consequently, I am losing heart.

But I do want to say how much value I have found in the postings on this thread. It epitomizes what I had hoped to find on the forum. Unfortunately, most of the other threads I have found both here and on other web sites are much too nonspecific to be of much value for me, a beginner who needs specific indicators and signposts for assurance that he is on the right track.

I would love to see many more threads in which specific experiences are discussed. I do understand that many have a natural reluctance to open themselves to possible contentious commentary and ridicule, but it would be of enormous usefulness to me---and undoubtedly to other pilgrims at the beginning level. Would anyone be so kind and so bold as to help me in resurrecting this thread topic? Or has everything to be said been said?

Re: Advice on tactile "nimittas", and how best to use them?

Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:54 pm
by reflection
It may be worth saying that a tactile nimitta is not really a tactile sensation. The sense of the body (and thus also the breath) is gone and all that remains is the mental component - aka the mind itself. The nimitta is simply how the mind represents itself. It can be by a visual sign (which also is not really visual as it is not seen by the eyes), and it can also be a 'tactile' version. It feels like a touchable body of sorts, but it clearly isn't. It is the mind looking at itself, so it is both object and subject in a way. It's impossible to describe, because language is based around the other 5 senses. I've had this happen and couldn't stabilize them. So much advice on how to deal with them, I can't really give. Going back to the breath is an advice already given and it may be a good one, but it will also mean the nimitta will disappear.
So it might be that you are just sitting there and there's no breath. Really, the breath is still there, but it has become so refined that it seems to have disappeared. Why? Because the mind is at its most refined, with a special kind of knowing. All that remains is the knowing. Even though the breath has vanished, the mind is still concentrated with the knowledge that the breath is not there. As you continue, what should you take up as the object of meditation? Take this very knowing as the meditation object - in other words the knowledge that there is no breath - and sustain this. You could say that a specific kind of knowledge has been established in the mind.

At this point, some people might have doubts arising, because it is here that nimitta can arise. These can be of many kinds, including both forms and sounds.
http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Evening_Sitting.php
I also had problems focussing on this what Ajahn Chah describes - "all that remains is the knowing", because it is a strange and subtle state. I think Ajahn Brahm describes it as "the breath disappears but the beautiful remains". But my self-analysis that I went too fast to these states, not giving them the ability to grow strong. But when I had the tactile nimittas, they came from that kind of state. So I guess to judge what is nimitta or not it is also fruitful to look at what it it is based upon.

Re: Advice on tactile "nimittas", and how best to use them?

Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:31 pm
by Heaviside
reflection wrote:It may be worth saying that a tactile nimitta is not really a tactile sensation. The sense of the body (and thus also the breath) is gone and all that remains is the mental component - aka the mind itself. The nimitta is simply how the mind represents itself. It can be by a visual sign (which also is not really visual as it is not seen by the eyes), and it can also be a 'tactile' version. It feels like a touchable body of sorts, but it clearly isn't. It is the mind looking at itself, so it is both object and subject in a way. It's impossible to describe, because language is based around the other 5 senses. I've had this happen and couldn't stabilize them. So much advice on how to deal with them, I can't really give. Going back to the breath is an advice already given and it may be a good one, but it will also mean the nimitta will disappear.
So it might be that you are just sitting there and there's no breath. Really, the breath is still there, but it has become so refined that it seems to have disappeared. Why? Because the mind is at its most refined, with a special kind of knowing. All that remains is the knowing. Even though the breath has vanished, the mind is still concentrated with the knowledge that the breath is not there. As you continue, what should you take up as the object of meditation? Take this very knowing as the meditation object - in other words the knowledge that there is no breath - and sustain this. You could say that a specific kind of knowledge has been established in the mind.

At this point, some people might have doubts arising, because it is here that nimitta can arise. These can be of many kinds, including both forms and sounds.
http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Evening_Sitting.php
I also had problems focussing on this what Ajahn Chah describes - "all that remains is the knowing", because it is a strange and subtle state. I think Ajahn Brahm describes it as "the breath disappears but the beautiful remains". But my self-analysis that I went too fast to these states, not giving them the ability to grow strong.
Thanks for the comment. Now the question is whether it is bad for the nimitta to disappear-----? And I do concur with your wish to know just what causes the phenomenon.

I wonder if you or anyone else has experimented with the forehead muscles? I find that I can imagine that the forehead is getting heavier and heavier, and this seems to lead to a cessation of discursive thought--!

Re: Advice on tactile "nimittas", and how best to use them?

Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:36 pm
by reflection
Well, bad is quite relative. In my experience the mind has usually gone beyond those kind of judgments at such a stage. I wouldn't call it bad, but just the way it is. I think minding it disappearing is more fitting to be called bad, because that will set one back much further. That goes at any level, also including losing heart because you think you are not progressing. I find it more conducive to view a meditation session as a place of just being with things, not as a time and place to do and achieve things.