Manopubbangama wrote: ↑Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:19 pmMy family went through several traumatic incidents, one was where my daughter almost died of a grave sickness, and we were uprooted from any semblance of routine that had existed prior: this was also during the greatest economic slump since the Great Depression, and procuring a material existence took a front seat to spiritual attainments.
MN 135 appears to possibly say the above matters of physical illness and economic poverty are due to actions those people committed in past lives. During the GFC, many people did not suffer from economic poverty, which according to MN 135, would possibly be because of good actions committed in past lives. Therefore, it could possibly be contrary to the Buddha-Dhamma to blame a world "economic slump" for one's personal economic hardships. I think modern sciences such as "evolution" and "economics" might possibly be contrary to Buddhism (like they are contrary to Christianity & Islam). I think MN 135 might possibly say it is due to past life kamma; as follows
I think DooDoot that you are being really unfair, not to mention your unfortunate lack of empathy. Manopubbangama simply explains the circumstances leading to his lack of spiritual practice lately, nowhere does he deny the effect of karma. Secondly, attributing his hardships to the economic downturn does not preclude karma. Otherwise if someone got hit by a car in the street, you would forbid them to say « I was hit by a car » and command them to say « I was hit by karma », which I'm sure you will agree is slightly absurd.
I'll open a new thread to ask the actual question that bothered me as it would be off-topic here, it's about your quote.
Manopubbangama wrote: ↑Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:19 pmMy family went through several traumatic incidents, one was where my daughter almost died of a grave sickness, and we were uprooted from any semblance of routine that had existed prior: this was also during the greatest economic slump since the Great Depression, and procuring a material existence took a front seat to spiritual attainments.
MN 135 appears to possibly say the above matters of physical illness and economic poverty are due to actions those people committed in past lives. During the GFC, many people did not suffer from economic poverty, which according to MN 135, would possibly be because of good actions committed in past lives. Therefore, it could possibly be contrary to the Buddha-Dhamma to blame a world "economic slump" for one's personal economic hardships. I think modern sciences such as "evolution" and "economics" might possibly be contrary to Buddhism (like they are contrary to Christianity & Islam). I think MN 135 might possibly say it is due to past life kamma; as follows
I think DooDoot that you are being really unfair, not to mention your unfortunate lack of empathy.
Regarding the strange claims he made, they are clearly contradicted by Suttas left and right but if you believe in esoteric hermeneutics of Suttanta, it is possible to claim that 2+2 = 5 with exactitude.
That being said, the world economic slump, as having something to do with individuals' khamma is about as absurd as it gets.
Even a bhikkhu who has attained the first jhana can jump the gun and fall from that state.
“Mendicants, suppose there was a mountain cow who was foolish, incompetent, unskillful, and lacked common sense when roaming on rugged mountains. She might think: ‘Why don’t I go somewhere I’ve never been before? I could eat grass and drink water that I’ve never tried before.’ She’d take a step with a fore-hoof; but before it was properly set down, she’d lift up a hind-hoof. She wouldn’t go somewhere she’d never been before, or eat grass and drink water that she’d never tried before. And she’d never return safely to the place she had started from. Why is that? Because that mountain cow was foolish, incompetent, unskillful, and lacked common sense when roaming on rugged mountains. In the same way, some foolish, incompetent, unskillful mendicant, lacking common sense, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. But they don’t cultivate, develop, and make much of that foundation; they don’t ensure it is properly stabilized.
They think: ‘Why don’t I, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, enter and remain in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected.’ But they’re not able to enter and remain in the second absorption. They think: ‘Why don’t I, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.’ But they’re not able to enter and remain in the first absorption. This is called a mendicant who has slipped and fallen from both sides. They’re like the mountain cow who was foolish, incompetent, unskillful, and lacking in common sense when roaming on rugged mountains.
I think the advice would be to go back to basics and work on those.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
Polar Bear wrote: ↑Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:48 pm
Even a bhikkhu who has attained the first jhana can jump the gun and fall from that state.
“Mendicants, suppose there was a mountain cow who was foolish, incompetent, unskillful, and lacked common sense when roaming on rugged mountains. She might think: ‘Why don’t I go somewhere I’ve never been before? I could eat grass and drink water that I’ve never tried before.’ She’d take a step with a fore-hoof; but before it was properly set down, she’d lift up a hind-hoof. She wouldn’t go somewhere she’d never been before, or eat grass and drink water that she’d never tried before. And she’d never return safely to the place she had started from. Why is that? Because that mountain cow was foolish, incompetent, unskillful, and lacked common sense when roaming on rugged mountains. In the same way, some foolish, incompetent, unskillful mendicant, lacking common sense, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. But they don’t cultivate, develop, and make much of that foundation; they don’t ensure it is properly stabilized.
They think: ‘Why don’t I, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, enter and remain in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected.’ But they’re not able to enter and remain in the second absorption. They think: ‘Why don’t I, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.’ But they’re not able to enter and remain in the first absorption. This is called a mendicant who has slipped and fallen from both sides. They’re like the mountain cow who was foolish, incompetent, unskillful, and lacking in common sense when roaming on rugged mountains.
I think the advice would be to go back to basics and work on those.
I agree with you 100% and I feel like I have been trying to retrace my steps for awhile now.
In the meanwhile, I also added vipassana and metta, which have done immeasurable good for my life. When I first started meditating, I had very few instructions and only read the Majjhima. I hope to 'unlearn' a lot of bad habits, as well, that I have accumulated over the years.
Manopubbangama wrote: ↑Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:19 pmMy family went through several traumatic incidents, one was where my daughter almost died of a grave sickness, and we were uprooted from any semblance of routine that had existed prior: this was also during the greatest economic slump since the Great Depression, and procuring a material existence took a front seat to spiritual attainments.
MN 135 appears to possibly say the above matters of physical illness and economic poverty are due to actions those people committed in past lives. During the GFC, many people did not suffer from economic poverty, which according to MN 135, would possibly be because of good actions committed in past lives. Therefore, it could possibly be contrary to the Buddha-Dhamma to blame a world "economic slump" for one's personal economic hardships. I think modern sciences such as "evolution" and "economics" might possibly be contrary to Buddhism (like they are contrary to Christianity & Islam). I think MN 135 might possibly say it is due to past life kamma; as follows:
"There is the case where a woman or man is not a giver of food, drink, cloth, sandals, garlands, scents, ointments, beds, dwellings, or lighting to brahmans or contemplatives. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If instead he/she comes to the human state, he/she is poor wherever reborn. This is the way leading to poverty: not to be a giver of food, drink, cloth, sandals, garlands, scents, ointments, beds, dwellings, or lighting to brahmans or contemplatives.
For example, in this video, we can observe the way leading to great wealth: to be a giver of food, drink, cloth, sandals, garlands, scents, ointments, beds, dwellings, & lighting to brahmans & contemplatives. In this video, instead of reviling & insulting the monks, the people walk through the forest to give food to the monks:
The Buddha provided the following reflection to develop equanimity & jhana:
A disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not the only one who is owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator; who — whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir. To the extent that there are beings — past and future, passing away and re-arising — all beings are the owner of their actions, heir to their actions, born of their actions, related through their actions, and have their actions as their arbitrator. Whatever they do, for good or for evil, to that will they fall heir.' When he/she often reflects on this, the [factors of the] path take birth. He/she sticks with that path, develops it, cultivates it. As he/she sticks with that path, develops it and cultivates it, the fetters are abandoned, the obsessions destroyed."
Are posts like this really helpful? Telling people that some hardships they had were because they didn't give alms to monks enough in past lives... You could always tell anyone with a problem, oh you weren't good enough in past lives. This hardly seems helpful.
Hi everyone
i found your discussion about Jhana which i study and try to practice in anyway i can since a while, i would like to add my testimony.
I went to many Vipassana SN Goenka 10 days retreat and i meditate between 3 to 5 hrs /day so if meditation was a sport ( which in some way is;-) i would say that i am quite well trained. If you are familiar with the Goenka meditation based on body sweeping , you are familiar with the concept of Free flow which is a very special state where you do not feel anymore body sensation but rather a sort of "energy" going all over your body if this goes further you can experience a state called Banga where you do not feel your body anymore and your state of mind is very, very quiet, this state of mind seems to me very closed to the 5 th jhana ( first immaterial jhana).
I went often in those states and when i discovered jhana ( which they don't teach you in Goenka course ) i realized after reading Leigh Brasington book about jhanas that some of those state are jhanas , in his book he teaches how to access to jhanas in a more obvious and clearer way than what you experience via the free flow, in fact once you are able to get into a free flow ( even a part one ) you can almost easily enter the first jhana because you are at "access concentration" as he call it ( upacāra samādhi) and go on until the 4 th jhana following his instruction , it is just amazing how relatively simple and faster it can be ( you need to be a well train meditator of course ).
When you enter the fisrt jhana you stop the body sweeping and focus only on the jhana technique then you can go further but the good thing and what surprised me the first time was not jhanas states because as i said jhana state ( at least the 4 ruppas) are close to deep free flow rather it was that focusing on jhana techniques was getting me into a deep free flow without any body sweeping, it was really amazing.
Getting to the 5 jhana is much harder and need lots of try but it seems to me that the feeling in that state( endless expansion with no body sensation as described by Leigh Brasington and the suttas) is very near from banga nana state.
Anyway i also wanting to say that there isn't anything 'holy' or 'mystical' about jhanas, there are incredible state of mind but anyone ( almost ) ready to train a lot can experience it and the more you do it the more you learn about very subtle state of mind, how mind works...deeply.
( as i am not English speaker, please forgive expressions that can be incorrect )
Tom
