Why speech ceased in first Jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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SarathW
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Why speech ceased in first Jhana?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:02 am

Why speech ceased in first Jhana?

Considering the fact the First Jhana comprise of Vitakka, Vicara (wholesome) I can not understand why speech has to be ceased in first Jhana.
What is the mental state we have when we speak?
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Re: Why speech ceased in first Jhana?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:20 am

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:02 am
Why speech ceased in first Jhana?
The jhanas constitute a "thinning out" of the fabrications and activities of daily life. You'll note that each jhana is generally characterised not by what's there, but by that which is no longer present. The process of speech, and the thoughts and intentions underpinning it is too active for the first jhana.
SarathW wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:02 am
Considering the fact the First Jhana comprise of Vitakka, Vicara (wholesome) I can not understand why speech has to be ceased in first Jhana.
What is the mental state we have when we speak?
It's simpler to think, than it is to think and speak. In this context, see MN 44.

If you've achieved any degree of meditative calm, then you know that to generate speech would be a disturbance in itself.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Why speech ceased in first Jhana?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:25 am

Thanks Retro
Which means, I can't even walk if I am in first Jhana?
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Re: Why speech ceased in first Jhana?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:31 am

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:25 am
Which means, I can't even walk if I am in first Jhana?
Read MN 20 and tell us what you think...
Just as the thought would occur to a man walking quickly, 'Why am I walking quickly? Why don't I walk slowly?' So he walks slowly. The thought occurs to him, 'Why am I walking slowly? Why don't I stand?' So he stands. The thought occurs to him, 'Why am I standing? Why don't I sit down?' So he sits down. The thought occurs to him, 'Why am I sitting? Why don't I lie down?' So he lies down. In this way, giving up the grosser posture, he takes up the more refined one.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Why speech ceased in first Jhana?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:56 am

giving up the grosser posture, he takes up the more refined one.
Good point.
But It won't tell whether you can't be in first Jhana when you are walking.
I am not sure whether there is a refined speech.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Why speech ceased in first Jhana?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:41 am

is that so?
because reasoning and deliberation are preparations for speech
and in second jhana these are stilled?
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Re: Why speech ceased in first Jhana?

Post by Stillness » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:36 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:02 am
Considering the fact the First Jhana comprise of Vitakka, Vicara (wholesome) I can not understand why speech has to be ceased in first Jhana.
Because vitakka and vicāra of jhāna and the ones exist in regular speech are not the same. Please read this thread.

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Re: Why speech ceased in first Jhana?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:47 am

The way I understand Vitakka and Vicara is the mind talking (speech).
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Re: Why speech ceased in first Jhana?

Post by Mr Man » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:58 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:47 am
The way I understand Vitakka and Vicara is the mind talking (speech).
The English word "speech" does not mean the mind talking.

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Re: Why speech ceased in first Jhana?

Post by Stillness » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:01 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:47 am
The way I understand Vitakka and Vicara is the mind talking (speech).
Mind talking, mouth talking all need the same thinking and pondering which is not a stilled mind. If you can do this then you can also walk or drive a car as some claimed to be doing while absorbed in a jhāna. Then that jhāna has nothing special compared to the mind state of an ordinary person.

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