Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Pseudobabble
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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by Pseudobabble » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:54 am

Today's session taught me (again) that a slow entry to the meditation is really worth it, for me at least.

I have a tendency to try to go straight into middle of things, off the deep end so to speak, not just in meditation - but it's actually a habit borne of the fear of screwing up. Taking the time to prepare properly, get the mind in the right state, and move slowly and carefully into the meditation (I use a part by part examination before moving to the nose) yields much better results than attempting to go straight into it.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by Pseudobabble » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:11 am

So far, the biggest help I have found is positively reinforcing the mind when it detects distraction. At the moment when the mind redirects attention back to the meditation object, it is a discovery that it has been distracted. At this point, consciously generating a feeling of pleasure, joy, satisfaction, because the mind has come back to the task it was set, tells the mind that remembering the breath is good thing to do. The unconscious mental processes responsible for monitoring various aspects of experience respond to our reactions to experiences. Experiences which generate pleasurable feelings result in increased tendencies to pursue those experiences - so that if remembering the breath is a pleasurable experience, that action will be pursued, and we will remember the breath more. It is easy to feel frustrated that we have forgotten the breath, but such a reaction will actually train the mind not to remember the breath, because doing so is an unpleasant experience.

It can feel slightly artificial to generate the joy and satisfaction, but there are a couple of things that can help it come naturally: one is seeing the process as a game, and the other is bearing in mind the context of the activity. As a game, the goal is to keep the breath in mind, in as much detail as possible, without losing awareness of everything else (AKA sleeping), so when the mind remembers the breath, it is 'winning' in the game. Its like balancing on a tightrope - when you successfully correct a slip of balance, you feel a little burst of satisfaction at having done it. Secondly, bearing in mind the context of the activity (the practice), means knowing that this activity is something worth doing, even if this particular session is difficult, and we seem to be 'failing' - so coming back to the breath is a moment of 'doing it right', even if the session as a whole is 'going badly'. This also helps with diligence and determination.

I am actually taking this little practice off the cushion, since it is so effective, and doing this practice all day. Intend to remember the breath wherever you feel it (for me its nostrils), and whenever your remember it during the day, during any activity, give a little burst of satisfaction, because right there, you're practicing well. Doing this off the cushion has helped my on-cushion practice enormously.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by Pseudobabble » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:23 am

A small and slightly strange addition to my last post: I notice that it is easier to generate and feel the satisfaction and joy of coming back to the breath if one gives a slight squeeze of the pelvic floor muscles and abdominals. These are the muscles which tense naturally when one is excited, happy, anticipatory, etc, and I notice from doing hatha yoga that activating them triggers a subtle surge of energy in the body, which seems to make the joy come easier. This will also anchor the moment of coming back to the breath to a physical act, which will help bind it into memory.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

auto
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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by auto » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:09 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:11 am
..
Thoughts,

Pleasure born of seclusion is 1st jhana, it comes with evaluations. 2nd jhana is when you still these thoughts, i think it is when you redirect your attention back to meditation object.
3rd jhana is fading of the pleasure. You can become dissatisfied, it can be painful period till you find equanimity. And enter 4th jhana.

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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by Pseudobabble » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:25 am

28 mins. I really want to increase sit times to 1 hour per session, or more, with minimum 1 hour per day.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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budo
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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by budo » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:00 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:25 am
28 mins. I really want to increase sit times to 1 hour per session, or more, with minimum 1 hour per day.
Yes 1 hour minimum to start feeling the effects. Are you still doing kasina meditation?

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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:05 am

i don't get signs or lights when focusing on the breath, at least not thus far even when sitting a couple hours nor does the method of shifting focus to pleasant sensations work as i would expect it but when i get calm i have a lot of pleasant feelings that are of intensity that will numb moderate pain and after some time if i keep at it intense showering pleasant feeling arises which was overwhelming first time so i freaked out.

I have since simply focused on the four satipatthana with breath as primary object whilst noting everything and contemplating, as i got serene i was able to reach the the onset of the same type of extreme pleasure again and it lasted longer second time, not sure how long but definitely longer sat for a while after it subsided as well.

Also when doing body part contemplation i get signs albeit unstable ones, so i just do the Insight focused Anapanasati and body contemplation nowadays. I probably won't go back to doing mahasi type of meditation with the points of touching because i think i get all the same benefits from just doing Anapanasati which clearly builds more concentration and cultivates the Satipatthana just as good if not better.

It is pretty much like Budo said with sitting at least an hour a day and avoiding entertainment etc. Another thing is that i was thinking that the breath litterally disappears when reading other people's reports but for me the strong Piti comes when breath gets calm and seems to disappear but it does not really disappear it just gets so shallow and irregular that it seems like it has stopped at times.

So as i understand it there is really no one technique that will work for everyone other than getting calm af and let it occur on its own one way or another

There is a place in the sutta where it says that the Tathagatha says that one should only train for calm, the discourse given to the guy who did not recognize the Tathagata if i remember correctly. I like that instruction.

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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by Pseudobabble » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:57 pm

budo wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:00 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:25 am
28 mins. I really want to increase sit times to 1 hour per session, or more, with minimum 1 hour per day.
Yes 1 hour minimum to start feeling the effects. Are you still doing kasina meditation?
No I switched back to anapanasati, since I am much more familiar with the breath at the nose as object. It seems the 'concentration accumulation curve', if you will, is quite shallow with a kasina, which I suppose is to be expected given how simple the object is. I still think kasina would be a great object for jhana, but I reckon it will be easier to approach when I have a better grounding in anapana.

One hour is definitely the goal, time-wise.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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budo
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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by budo » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:30 pm

A tip with anapanasati, focus on the tip of the nose rather than chasing / following the breath up and down from the abdomen to the nose. The reason being is that chasing/following the breath is energy consuming and will tire you out, and I also agree with the patisambdhimagga and the vimuttimagga that chasing/following the breath leads to shaking whereas focusing on the nostrils/lip (wherever the breath is strongest) leads to making the breath more suble to the point it disappears.

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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by Pseudobabble » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:01 am

45 minutes. Will now do 45 minutes twice a day, morning and evening, working each up to 1 hr.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by Pseudobabble » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:20 am

37 minutes. More later. Following the breath, maintaining extrospective awareness, watching the mind with introspective awareness, and applying positive reinforcement when I catch the mind forgetting. Things are getting better slowly. Placing attention on the nostrils throughout the day really helps.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

auto
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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by auto » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:19 am

Going further than stamp 45 min is when brainwaves change. Learning is focused activity or any other activity where i want to understand something at around 45 min brain changes.
When that brainwaves are on its much harder to focus and keep you on subject, its much easier to just abide and wait till something clicks.

While being on these slow brainwaves you can trigger the clarity and vigor what is before 45 min. If you can do that, you eventually you will feel the brainwaves as tangible and can guide it, move it around.

First you give energy and at second you receive, doing that eventually one day recognicion happen, because you have done it so much you discern the place and can get the the substance out by yourself. And when you get it out, it sets the pump on, its bodily mechanism.

Without substance stopping the breath i think is not possible, at one point by stopping the breath you let the substance sink. The substance in body is what lets you know what you should do and how. And also it causes sickness, pain, all sorts of bad things what are needed in order to push you into correct way of doing things.

auto
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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by auto » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:03 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:05 am
i don't get signs or lights when focusing on the breath, at least not thus far even when sitting a couple hours nor does the method of shifting focus to pleasant sensations work as i would expect it but when i get calm i have a lot of pleasant feelings that are of intensity that will numb moderate pain and after some time if i keep at it intense showering pleasant feeling arises which was overwhelming first time so i freaked out.
it may sound ridiculous but being tired from too little sleep helps a lot to see all sorts of things, you can force yourself to be awake by holding yourself on some activities, you do need defeat some of the waves what come at you to make you fall asleep . Someone i know worked two shifts at work and didn't get much sleep and he was atheist materialist but then he saw lucid dream and after that he even went to church.

To see a light, its the white noise in the hearing and then focus on the seeing same thing what is the white noise but its eyes and white firmament appears, it opens also a cavity to body or somewhere.

Ohter mark of progress on path is the white noise goes loud and you notice it spontaneously and then high pitched sound is heard or the other one is low frequency suck up in head.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:49 pm

I dont usually meditate if i am nodding and sleepy as thoughts are just drifting and i cant focus.

Also next time i get strong piti i will try not changing the object to the feeling entirely, i will stay primarily with the breath while keeping the piti in mind as well and noting it "simultaneously" as a secondary object.

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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by Pseudobabble » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:57 am

40 minutes. 5.5 hours this week. Aiming for 7 next week.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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