Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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budo
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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by budo » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:44 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:37 am
I've also since been making the mistake of mixing it with contemplation of elements, as i understand it contemplation of elements counters the absorbtion.
Yes, applied/initial and sustained/directed thought are the two first factors of first jhana, meaning you're focused on one object. Contemplating is no longer sustaining thought on the object, as you're disconnecting from it.

Basically pick an object and focus on it until either

1) rapture & pleasure arise and you can move your attention to it

or

2) mind counter part sign (nimitta) arises and you can move your attention to it and then the body (the physical object) unify with the mind.

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Pondera
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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by Pondera » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:56 pm

budo wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:02 am
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:10 am
I enter earth and water at will. No instructors. Bliss and pleasure accompanied by discursive thought or not. Single minded concentration or just general awareness. I don’t know why people would believe Buddhaghosa- ie. that earth and water, wind and fire are simply “objects” to lead to all four jhanas. It is obvious - in my opinion - given the number of suttas which support this view - that the first four jhanas are the material kasinas.

So, I don’t wait for nimittas. I don’t expect for a transitional type of attainment of jhana. I jump in to one and when I am satisfied with it I stop the process and jump into the next one.

So far the jhana descriptions of joy and rapture, etc. Have coaligned with my own findings. I won’t post my PDF again. Unless I’m asked too.
Out of curiosity, how do you start your meditation? Do you follow the breath?

Thank you
No. I relax tension in the bottom of my heart. Then I relax my root chakra. Then I relax and concentrate on the left hemisphere of my brain in a fairly particular place. Then I open an area in my heart which releases a substance that flows through my entire body. Everything that substance touches is relaxed and at this point I experience pleasure and bliss. For as long as I concentrate on my mind, the earth element flows through me and fills me with pleasure and release.

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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by Pseudobabble » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:22 pm

Today I was very agitated, and approaching the meditation with too much force.

What worked for me was to do a part by part meditation, Thanissaro style, building up larger and larger areas of bodily attention until I had whole-body attention, and then moving attention to the breath at the nose while maintaining whole body awareness.

I find this is very effective for working with an agitated mind which doesn't want to settle down on the object, because it gives the mind lots of things to do, constant movement, while slowly reducing the number of things, naturally calming the mind until it is ready to settle on the breath.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by Pseudobabble » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:24 am

Weirdly enough, I'm beginning to see organising my life and cleaning my house as part of preparation for samadhi. Having nothing to worry about in terms of life administration really helps with settling the mind. I suppose these are the woes of a householder.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

auto
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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by auto » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:48 pm

Pondera wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:56 pm
budo wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:02 am
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:10 am
I enter earth and water at will. No instructors. Bliss and pleasure accompanied by discursive thought or not. Single minded concentration or just general awareness. I don’t know why people would believe Buddhaghosa- ie. that earth and water, wind and fire are simply “objects” to lead to all four jhanas. It is obvious - in my opinion - given the number of suttas which support this view - that the first four jhanas are the material kasinas.

So, I don’t wait for nimittas. I don’t expect for a transitional type of attainment of jhana. I jump in to one and when I am satisfied with it I stop the process and jump into the next one.

So far the jhana descriptions of joy and rapture, etc. Have coaligned with my own findings. I won’t post my PDF again. Unless I’m asked too.
Out of curiosity, how do you start your meditation? Do you follow the breath?

Thank you
No. I relax tension in the bottom of my heart. Then I relax my root chakra. Then I relax and concentrate on the left hemisphere of my brain in a fairly particular place. Then I open an area in my heart which releases a substance that flows through my entire body. Everything that substance touches is relaxed and at this point I experience pleasure and bliss. For as long as I concentrate on my mind, the earth element flows through me and fills me with pleasure and release.
Idea of concentration is to arose absorption or access to interrupt the life-continuum. And then develop the sign, while with access concentration mind will re-enter to the life-continuum after sign has takes as object by the mind.

PathofPurification2011 http://www.abhidhamma.com/
[THE TWO KINDS OF CONCENTRATION]
32. Now, concentration is of two kinds, that is to say, access concentration and
absorption concentration: the mind becomes concentrated in two ways, that is,
on the plane of access and on the plane of obtainment. Herein, the mind becomes
concentrated on the plane of access by the abandonment of the hindrances, and
on the plane of obtainment by the manifestation of the jhána factors.
33. The difference between the two kinds of concentration is this. The factors
are not strong in access. It is because they are not strong that when access has
arisen, the mind now makes the sign its object and now re-enters the lifecontinuum,
13 just as when a young child is lifted up and stood on its feet, it
repeatedly falls down on the ground. But the factors are strong in absorption. It
is because they are strong that when absorption concentration has arisen, the
mind, having once interrupted the flow of the life-continuum, carries on with a
stream of profitable impulsion for a whole night and for a whole day, just as a
healthy man, after rising from his seat, could stand for a whole day.
What concentration is any activity what causes mind to become concentrated.

..
40. 5. Food: Sweet food suits one, sour food another.
6. Climate: a cool climate suits one, a warm one another. So when he finds that
by using certain food or by living in a certain climate he is comfortable, or his
unconcentrated mind becomes concentrated, or his concentrated mind becomes
more so, then that food or that climate is suitable. Any other food or climate is
unsuitable.
41. 7. Postures: walking suits one; standing or sitting or lying down suits
another. So he should try them, like the abode, for three days each, and that
posture is suitable in which his unconcentrated mind becomes concentrated or
his concentrated mind becomes more so. Any other should be understood as
unsuitable.
-----------
What I think you have these but you just don't know what is what(not recognize), but still use them, i think its not possible to do anything without absorption, access and sign..

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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by Pondera » Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:35 am

auto wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:48 pm
Pondera wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:56 pm
budo wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:02 am


Out of curiosity, how do you start your meditation? Do you follow the breath?

Thank you
No. I relax tension in the bottom of my heart. Then I relax my root chakra. Then I relax and concentrate on the left hemisphere of my brain in a fairly particular place. Then I open an area in my heart which releases a substance that flows through my entire body. Everything that substance touches is relaxed and at this point I experience pleasure and bliss. For as long as I concentrate on my mind, the earth element flows through me and fills me with pleasure and release.
Idea of concentration is to arose absorption or access to interrupt the life-continuum. And then develop the sign, while with access concentration mind will re-enter to the life-continuum after sign has takes as object by the mind.

PathofPurification2011 http://www.abhidhamma.com/
[THE TWO KINDS OF CONCENTRATION]
32. Now, concentration is of two kinds, that is to say, access concentration and
absorption concentration: the mind becomes concentrated in two ways, that is,
on the plane of access and on the plane of obtainment. Herein, the mind becomes
concentrated on the plane of access by the abandonment of the hindrances, and
on the plane of obtainment by the manifestation of the jhána factors.
33. The difference between the two kinds of concentration is this. The factors
are not strong in access. It is because they are not strong that when access has
arisen, the mind now makes the sign its object and now re-enters the lifecontinuum,
13 just as when a young child is lifted up and stood on its feet, it
repeatedly falls down on the ground. But the factors are strong in absorption. It
is because they are strong that when absorption concentration has arisen, the
mind, having once interrupted the flow of the life-continuum, carries on with a
stream of profitable impulsion for a whole night and for a whole day, just as a
healthy man, after rising from his seat, could stand for a whole day.
What concentration is any activity what causes mind to become concentrated.

..
40. 5. Food: Sweet food suits one, sour food another.
6. Climate: a cool climate suits one, a warm one another. So when he finds that
by using certain food or by living in a certain climate he is comfortable, or his
unconcentrated mind becomes concentrated, or his concentrated mind becomes
more so, then that food or that climate is suitable. Any other food or climate is
unsuitable.
41. 7. Postures: walking suits one; standing or sitting or lying down suits
another. So he should try them, like the abode, for three days each, and that
posture is suitable in which his unconcentrated mind becomes concentrated or
his concentrated mind becomes more so. Any other should be understood as
unsuitable.
-----------
What I think you have these but you just don't know what is what(not recognize), but still use them, i think its not possible to do anything without absorption, access and sign..
I don’t follow Buddhaghosa’s method, so I have a hard time relating to his definitions. However if I had to use those definitions I might say the following.

Access concentration for me is the mental pressure I exert on the left hemisphere of my brain. This has two consequences. One, it releases the root chakra substance. Two, it releases the earth element heart substance. As soon as those two flow through the body joy and pleasure arise. When these factors are sufficiently high, I do two things.

I would call this “absorption concentration”. One. I mentally open my mind and body as far as I can. Two. I intentionally exert mindfulness on my body and mind too intensify the joy and pleasure. This leads to a pleasant release; a light mind and a pain free body.

When this is over and after I am satisfied that I have accomplished my goal, I move on to the next element: water. It has a different starting point, a different chakra, a different mental connection, and a different situation in the heart.

Note that the “sign” for me in the first case is “earth”. It arises in my body. I visualize a brown aura around me when it is active. I do not look for nimittas. And I do not try to capture that flea head black spot either. It is damn near impossible. But I have read cases where people have learned to control that black flea’s head and they have experienced great joy and bliss as a result.

I practice a softer method than that. It works for me. It keeps my back healthy. It stops me from being anxious. It helps with motivation in times where I will whine that I don’t want to do this or that. It is pleasant and relaxing. It is many things!

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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by Pseudobabble » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:21 am

Pondera wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:35 am

root chakra substance.
earth element heart substance.
flea head black spot

I have read cases where people have learned to control that black flea’s head and they have experienced great joy and bliss as a result.
Could you please define those terms? And then explain what that last sentence means? Thanks.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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budo
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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by budo » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:12 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:22 pm
Today I was very agitated, and approaching the meditation with too much force.

What worked for me was to do a part by part meditation, Thanissaro style, building up larger and larger areas of bodily attention until I had whole-body attention, and then moving attention to the breath at the nose while maintaining whole body awareness.

I find this is very effective for working with an agitated mind which doesn't want to settle down on the object, because it gives the mind lots of things to do, constant movement, while slowly reducing the number of things, naturally calming the mind until it is ready to settle on the breath.
Good work. Keep it up.

I tend to lean more towards sloth rather than restlessness. I find that body posture makes a huge difference, if I'm too comfortable I have too much sloth, if I'm too uncomfortable then I have too much discomfort which leads to restlessness.

auto
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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by auto » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:17 pm

Pondera wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:35 am
I don’t follow Buddhaghosa’s method, so I have a hard time relating to his definitions. However if I had to use those definitions I might say the following.

Access concentration for me is the mental pressure I exert on the left hemisphere of my brain. This has two consequences. One, it releases the root chakra substance. Two, it releases the earth element heart substance. As soon as those two flow through the body joy and pleasure arise. When these factors are sufficiently high, I do two things.

I would call this “absorption concentration”. One. I mentally open my mind and body as far as I can. Two. I intentionally exert mindfulness on my body and mind too intensify the joy and pleasure. This leads to a pleasant release; a light mind and a pain free body.

When this is over and after I am satisfied that I have accomplished my goal, I move on to the next element: water. It has a different starting point, a different chakra, a different mental connection, and a different situation in the heart.

Note that the “sign” for me in the first case is “earth”. It arises in my body. I visualize a brown aura around me when it is active. I do not look for nimittas. And I do not try to capture that flea head black spot either. It is damn near impossible. But I have read cases where people have learned to control that black flea’s head and they have experienced great joy and bliss as a result.

I practice a softer method than that. It works for me. It keeps my back healthy. It stops me from being anxious. It helps with motivation in times where I will whine that I don’t want to do this or that. It is pleasant and relaxing. It is many things!
Nice,
What do you think, is it possible to start reverse age, grow new teeth etc because of the way or practice you do and live?

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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by Pseudobabble » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:03 pm

budo wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:12 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:22 pm
Today I was very agitated, and approaching the meditation with too much force.

What worked for me was to do a part by part meditation, Thanissaro style, building up larger and larger areas of bodily attention until I had whole-body attention, and then moving attention to the breath at the nose while maintaining whole body awareness.

I find this is very effective for working with an agitated mind which doesn't want to settle down on the object, because it gives the mind lots of things to do, constant movement, while slowly reducing the number of things, naturally calming the mind until it is ready to settle on the breath.
Good work. Keep it up.

I tend to lean more towards sloth rather than restlessness. I find that body posture makes a huge difference, if I'm too comfortable I have too much sloth, if I'm too uncomfortable then I have too much discomfort which leads to restlessness.
Thanks :D Having heard you say that you meditate 1-2 hours every morning, I'm motivated to try to match that.

I also have problems with sleepiness, but these days I'm doing hatha yoga and pranayama beforehand, which really increases energy levels.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Pondera
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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by Pondera » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:05 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:21 am
Pondera wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:35 am

root chakra substance.
earth element heart substance.
flea head black spot

I have read cases where people have learned to control that black flea’s head and they have experienced great joy and bliss as a result.
Could you please define those terms? And then explain what that last sentence means? Thanks.
Sure. The chakras are part of a Hindu Yogic belief system. They are seven energy centres distributed along the spine and head. The root chakra is the lowest energy centre. It is red. I believe chakra means “to spin”. Thus, these energy centres spin in our body and are believed to control different aspects of our physiology. Interestingly, they correspond neatly to our endocrine glands - each chakra has an associated endocrine gland. The root chakra is associated with the prostrate gland. So, you can imagine that if you open this energy centre, then there is a secretion of sorts. That is the substance I am referring to.

The earth element heart substance is a discovery of my own. It relates to the earth totality - the earth kasina. It is also a secretion of sorts. As I said, when the two are secreted in tandem they give rise to pleasure and bliss.

The flea’s head. Buddhaghosa describes eye consciousness as a black dot no bigger that a flea’s head. If you search your visual field you will find it flickering to and fro. The more you try to control it, the more it flickers around. I’ve read an instance where one meditator was able to exert a great amount of effort and pin down the dot. He experienced bliss and joy as a result.

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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by Pondera » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:36 am

auto wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:17 pm
Pondera wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:35 am
I don’t follow Buddhaghosa’s method, so I have a hard time relating to his definitions. However if I had to use those definitions I might say the following.

Access concentration for me is the mental pressure I exert on the left hemisphere of my brain. This has two consequences. One, it releases the root chakra substance. Two, it releases the earth element heart substance. As soon as those two flow through the body joy and pleasure arise. When these factors are sufficiently high, I do two things.

I would call this “absorption concentration”. One. I mentally open my mind and body as far as I can. Two. I intentionally exert mindfulness on my body and mind too intensify the joy and pleasure. This leads to a pleasant release; a light mind and a pain free body.

When this is over and after I am satisfied that I have accomplished my goal, I move on to the next element: water. It has a different starting point, a different chakra, a different mental connection, and a different situation in the heart.

Note that the “sign” for me in the first case is “earth”. It arises in my body. I visualize a brown aura around me when it is active. I do not look for nimittas. And I do not try to capture that flea head black spot either. It is damn near impossible. But I have read cases where people have learned to control that black flea’s head and they have experienced great joy and bliss as a result.

I practice a softer method than that. It works for me. It keeps my back healthy. It stops me from being anxious. It helps with motivation in times where I will whine that I don’t want to do this or that. It is pleasant and relaxing. It is many things!
Nice,
What do you think, is it possible to start reverse age, grow new teeth etc because of the way or practice you do and live?
Well, interestingly - Science (and stem cells in particular) are proving to be able to do just that. My practice? I don’t think so. It does address inflammation of the joints and ligaments. It allows bound up muscles to relax. That’s kind of the nature of it. Maybe not a regenerative type of thing. I don’t know if even the Buddha would claim to have an antidote to aging (except to stop the rounds of birth of course!). Whatever is born will age and die.

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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by budo » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:55 am

Hi guys,

Can you please keep this thread on the topic of Jhanas, specifically 1-4 rupa jhanas and 5-8 arupa jhanas.

Here is the definition for those jhanas in case you need a refresher, http://www.leighb.com/jhana8.htm

Remember, the recipe for entering first jhana is

1) Initial and sustained thinking/attention on an object

2) Overcoming the 5 hindrances

3) Switching attention over to piti and sukha when they arise

Thank you.

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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by cjmacie » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:05 am

budo wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:55 am
Hi guys,

Can you please keep this thread on the topic of Jhanas, specifically 1-4 rupa jhanas and 5-8 arupa jhanas.

Here is the definition for those jhanas in case you need a refresher, http://www.leighb.com/jhana8.htm

Remember, the recipe for entering first jhana is

1) Initial and sustained thinking/attention on an object

2) Overcoming the 5 hindrances

3) Switching attention over to piti and sukha when they arise

Thank you.
Remember, the "definition" and "recipe" here are Leigh Brasington's interpretations, and his authority in these matters is not accepted in all quarters.

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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by budo » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:08 am

cjmacie wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:05 am
budo wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:55 am
Hi guys,

Can you please keep this thread on the topic of Jhanas, specifically 1-4 rupa jhanas and 5-8 arupa jhanas.

Here is the definition for those jhanas in case you need a refresher, http://www.leighb.com/jhana8.htm

Remember, the recipe for entering first jhana is

1) Initial and sustained thinking/attention on an object

2) Overcoming the 5 hindrances

3) Switching attention over to piti and sukha when they arise

Thank you.
Remember, the "definition" and "recipe" here are Leigh Brasington's interpretations, and his authority in these matters is not accepted in all quarters.

There are no interpretations in that link, just sutta quotes. Everything else is my own interpretation based on my experience. You're free to contribute to this thread with your own interpretation based on your experiences in jhana.

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