Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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one_awakening
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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by one_awakening » Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:39 am

budo wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:43 am

Great! Are you sitting at least one hour every day?
I usually sit for two hours per day and sometimes for three hours. Jhana definitely requires a considerable commitment time-wise.

budo wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:43 am

.....I got up, drank some water and relaxed. I sat on the floor with a cushion and then after one hour I entered a very nice jhana
Yes, I have found this too. Sometimes I get stuck, so I'll get up and do some walking meditation for a few minutes and sit back down and resume the meditation and I'll enter Jhana soon after. The walking meditation kind of refreshes the mind and the body.


budo wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:43 am

I think the biggest time sink is sloth because it is so easy to slip into a semi lucid dream state and kill time without noticing it. I think sitting too comfortably allows for more sloth
For me it's quieting down the mind. This usually takes a while for me. It's very difficult to just sit down and go "bang" and the thoughts disappear.

With sloth and torpor, walking meditation might help. Sometimes I'll do a bit of exercise before the meditation. On some days however, if the sloth a torpor is too bad, there may be no point doing sitting meditation. Walking meditation might be a better option.
“You only lose what you cling to”

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budo
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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by budo » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:59 am

WorldTraveller wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:27 am
budo wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:09 pm
As I wrote elsewhere I would get out of jhana to either move onto vipassana contemplation or out of compassion obligation reasons like to meet my GF when she arrives home from work.
Even on the first time I experienced jhana, there were no thinking while in it. There were no whatsoever thoughts as "Should I sit further?" or "Should I get out and cook dinner?" It was impossible to think or it did not occur. The mind was fully occupied in a very bright nimitta. I think if one can think, that means already back in the regular sensory world where you are receptive to usual sights, sounds, odours, tastes, bodily sensations, thoughts.
Intention precedes thoughts, when you give up intention in 8th jhana you get cessation.

It's intention that leads to actions, not thoughts.

Thoughts are byproducts of intention.

This is the insight you get from jhana meditation, you ferret out the causes of your reality (5 aggregates). By turning them on and off you can see how they work.

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Pondera
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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by Pondera » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:10 am

I enter earth and water at will. No instructors. Bliss and pleasure accompanied by discursive thought or not. Single minded concentration or just general awareness. I don’t know why people would believe Buddhaghosa- ie. that earth and water, wind and fire are simply “objects” to lead to all four jhanas. It is obvious - in my opinion - given the number of suttas which support this view - that the first four jhanas are the material kasinas.

So, I don’t wait for nimittas. I don’t expect for a transitional type of attainment of jhana. I jump in to one and when I am satisfied with it I stop the process and jump into the next one.

So far the jhana descriptions of joy and rapture, etc. Have coaligned with my own findings. I won’t post my PDF again. Unless I’m asked too.

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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:25 am

Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:10 am
I enter earth and water at will. No instructors.
:mrgreen:
Here, bhikkhus, an untaught ordinary person, who has no regard for noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who has no regard for true men and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, perceives earth as earth. Having perceived earth as earth, he conceives himself as earth, he conceives himself in earth, he conceives himself apart from earth, he conceives earth to be ‘mine,’ he delights in earth. Why is that? Because he has not fully understood it, I say.

He perceives water as water. Having perceived water as water, he conceives himself as water, he conceives himself in water, he conceives himself apart from water, he conceives water to be ‘mine,’ he delights in water. Why is that? Because he has not fully understood it, I say.

He perceives fire as fire. Having perceived fire as fire, he conceives himself as fire, he conceives himself in fire, he conceives himself apart from fire, he conceives fire to be ‘mine,’ he delights in fire. Why is that? Because he has not fully understood it, I say.

He perceives air as air. Having perceived air as air, he conceives himself as air, he conceives himself in air, he conceives himself apart from air, he conceives air to be ‘mine,’ he delights in air. Why is that? Because he has not fully understood it, I say.

https://suttacentral.net/mn1/en/bodhi
At one time Venerable Sāriputta was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. Then Venerable Sāriputta robed up in the morning and, taking his bowl and robe, entered Sāvatthī for alms. He wandered for alms in Sāvatthī. After the meal, on his return from alms-round, he went to the Dark Forest, plunged deep into it, and sat at the root of a tree for the day’s meditation.

Then in the late afternoon, Sāriputta came out of retreat and went to Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. Venerable Ānanda saw him coming off in the distance, and said to him: “Reverend Sāriputta, your faculties are so very clear, and your complexion is pure and bright. What meditation were you practicing today?”

“Reverend, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I entered and remained in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. But it didn’t occur to me: ‘I am entering the first absorption’ or ‘I have entered the first absorption’ or ‘I am emerging from the first absorption’.”

That must be because Venerable Sāriputta has long ago totally uprooted ego, possessiveness, and the underlying tendency to conceit. That’s why it didn’t occur to you: ‘I am entering the first absorption’ or ‘I have entered the first absorption’ or ‘I am emerging from the first absorption’.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn28.1/en/sujato

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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by Pondera » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:37 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:25 am
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:10 am
I enter earth and water at will. No instructors.
:mrgreen:
Here, bhikkhus, an untaught ordinary person, who has no regard for noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who has no regard for true men and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, perceives earth as earth. Having perceived earth as earth, he conceives himself as earth, he conceives himself in earth, he conceives himself apart from earth, he conceives earth to be ‘mine,’ he delights in earth. Why is that? Because he has not fully understood it, I say.

He perceives water as water. Having perceived water as water, he conceives himself as water, he conceives himself in water, he conceives himself apart from water, he conceives water to be ‘mine,’ he delights in water. Why is that? Because he has not fully understood it, I say.

He perceives fire as fire. Having perceived fire as fire, he conceives himself as fire, he conceives himself in fire, he conceives himself apart from fire, he conceives fire to be ‘mine,’ he delights in fire. Why is that? Because he has not fully understood it, I say.

He perceives air as air. Having perceived air as air, he conceives himself as air, he conceives himself in air, he conceives himself apart from air, he conceives air to be ‘mine,’ he delights in air. Why is that? Because he has not fully understood it, I say.

https://suttacentral.net/mn1/en/bodhi
At one time Venerable Sāriputta was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. Then Venerable Sāriputta robed up in the morning and, taking his bowl and robe, entered Sāvatthī for alms. He wandered for alms in Sāvatthī. After the meal, on his return from alms-round, he went to the Dark Forest, plunged deep into it, and sat at the root of a tree for the day’s meditation.

Then in the late afternoon, Sāriputta came out of retreat and went to Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. Venerable Ānanda saw him coming off in the distance, and said to him: “Reverend Sāriputta, your faculties are so very clear, and your complexion is pure and bright. What meditation were you practicing today?”

“Reverend, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I entered and remained in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. But it didn’t occur to me: ‘I am entering the first absorption’ or ‘I have entered the first absorption’ or ‘I am emerging from the first absorption’.”

That must be because Venerable Sāriputta has long ago totally uprooted ego, possessiveness, and the underlying tendency to conceit. That’s why it didn’t occur to you: ‘I am entering the first absorption’ or ‘I have entered the first absorption’ or ‘I am emerging from the first absorption’.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn28.1/en/sujato

In response to that:

The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is five-factored noble right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

"Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. This is the first development of the five-factored noble right concentration.
"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.
Intention, pleasure and consciousness are all part of the first jhana. I may not take note of entering the earth kasina, but I do actively suffuse my body with the joy and pleasure born of that element.

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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:13 am

Pondera wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:37 am
Intention, pleasure and consciousness are all part of the first jhana. I may not take note of entering the earth kasina, but I do actively suffuse my body with the joy and pleasure born of that element.
Could be like Hindu Laughing Yoga. "Intention" has many nuances. The "intention" in jhana may not be the coarse intention inferred above. In the video below, there is intention used for joy but this type of intention in the video may not be the same intention found in jhana.

For example, SN 48.10 says jhana is reached by making "letting go" the object of meditation. Do you think the act of "letting go" requires intention? If so, how would this quality of intention to let go be described? Is it the same quality of intention as in the video?


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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by Pondera » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:12 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:13 am
Pondera wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:37 am
Intention, pleasure and consciousness are all part of the first jhana. I may not take note of entering the earth kasina, but I do actively suffuse my body with the joy and pleasure born of that element.
Could be like Hindu Laughing Yoga. "Intention" has many nuances. The "intention" in jhana may not be the coarse intention inferred above. In the video below, there is intention used for joy but this type of intention in the video may not be the same intention found in jhana.

For example, SN 48.10 says jhana is reached by making "letting go" the object of meditation. Do you think the act of "letting go" requires intention? If so, how would this quality of intention to let go be described? Is it the same quality of intention as in the video?

“Letting go” requires concentration; application of mind; thought. There is a type of concentration which applies pressure on the mind. Like a person with an object in his fist - he must open his hand in order to let go. That requires “intention”. In jhana, letting go of the stress which obstructs piti and sukkah; that requires concentration - the type which releases pressure through application of thought.

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DooDoot
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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:31 am

Pondera wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:12 am
“Letting go” requires concentration...
The suttas say concentration requires letting go & leads to more letting go. Best wishes. :meditate:

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budo
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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by budo » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:02 am

Pondera wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:10 am
I enter earth and water at will. No instructors. Bliss and pleasure accompanied by discursive thought or not. Single minded concentration or just general awareness. I don’t know why people would believe Buddhaghosa- ie. that earth and water, wind and fire are simply “objects” to lead to all four jhanas. It is obvious - in my opinion - given the number of suttas which support this view - that the first four jhanas are the material kasinas.

So, I don’t wait for nimittas. I don’t expect for a transitional type of attainment of jhana. I jump in to one and when I am satisfied with it I stop the process and jump into the next one.

So far the jhana descriptions of joy and rapture, etc. Have coaligned with my own findings. I won’t post my PDF again. Unless I’m asked too.
Out of curiosity, how do you start your meditation? Do you follow the breath?

Thank you

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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by Pseudobabble » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:30 am

Just want to say I love the thread. So nice to have a proper discussion of jhana on the basis of pragmatism. Can we leave notes here? Analyses and comments on our practice?
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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budo
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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by budo » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:02 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:30 am
Just want to say I love the thread. So nice to have a proper discussion of jhana on the basis of pragmatism. Can we leave notes here? Analyses and comments on our practice?
Definitely! That's the purpose of this thread, first hand experience, practicality, and pragmatism first and foremost, and not scholarly debates (unless needed for a specific issue). This thread is not intended for people who don't practice meditation.

rightviewftw
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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:21 am

7. Where are you working on? what are you stuck on? and what do you need help on?
I think developing absorbtion concentration by means of bodyparts will overall be useful at this point.

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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by budo » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:49 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:21 am
7. Where are you working on? what are you stuck on? and what do you need help on?
I think developing absorbtion concentration by means of bodyparts will overall be useful at this point.
That's a good goal for someone who is coming from the vipassana side of things. Mindfulness of Body (Kayagata-sati) is a good balance of samatha and vipassana, may be of interest to you.

This list aligns with the Kayagati-sati sutta http://www.leighb.com/scanmap.htm

This should take you to first jhana, as explained in this Pa Auk Sayadaw retreat book, page 71

Good luck and feel free to post updates and helpful resources in this thread!

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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by Pseudobabble » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:22 am

Alright. I'll commit to practicing minimum 45 minutes a day, and increase to 1.5 hours over the course of 4 months. I want to be able to access first jhana on demand. The rest can come later, as it comes. I'll post anything I think worth noting. I'm following the instruction in The Mind Illuminated, as it is what has worked best for me so far. Good luck everyone!
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

rightviewftw
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Re: Let's help eachother develop jhanas (take two!)

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:37 am

I want something to serve as a base for calm because i think that dry-insight mode of training after a certain point needs to be quite intensive and practiced in a strictly structured manner. Therefore I figure that having developed at least the first jhana is probably a good idea.

I've been developing the bodypart contemplation before up to seeing the bodypart nimitta but i just noted "seeing, seeing" and it went away and i didn't focus on it much since. I've also since been making the mistake of mixing it with contemplation of elements, as i understand it contemplation of elements counters the absorbtion.

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