Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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DNS
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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by DNS » Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:04 pm

One extreme is that attainment of the jhanas is virtually impossible and on a par with arahantship. Another extreme is that they are very easy to attain. Like most everything, the truth is somewhere in the middle, imo.

The Buddha's first experience of jhanas came when he was a child:
"I considered: ‘I recall that when my father the Sakyan was occupied, while I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. Could that be the path to enlightenment?’ Then, following on that memory, came the realisation: ‘That is indeed the path to enlightenment.’ ...
https://suttacentral.net/mn36/en/sujato
The Buddha-to-be was not an arahant at the time, nor a stream-entrant.

Alara Kalama reached the 7th jhana (if you count the formless realms as the Jhanas) and was not a stream-entrant or anything higher.
Udaka Ramaputta reached the 8th jhana (if you count the formless realms as the Jhanas) and was not a stream-entrant or anything higher.
(The formless realms come after the four jhanas; after the four rupa-jhanas.)

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:22 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:41 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:30 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:24 pm
As i understand it the 4 factored Jhanas are more unstable....
What is a 4 factored jhana? :shrug:
It is a term i picked up but it is not a thing. It was a misunderstanding on my part based description of The First Jhana as with 4 factors without one pointedness.
For the record; I am still not sure what to make of it and if the First Jhana can be without absorbtion. Terminology is confusing. Don't want to say wrong things so i don't really know.

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by budo » Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:26 pm

DNS wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:04 pm
One extreme is that attainment of the jhanas is virtually impossible and on a par with arahantship. Another extreme is that they are very easy to attain. Like most everything, the truth is somewhere in the middle, imo.

The Buddha's first experience of jhanas came when he was a child:
"I considered: ‘I recall that when my father the Sakyan was occupied, while I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. Could that be the path to enlightenment?’ Then, following on that memory, came the realisation: ‘That is indeed the path to enlightenment.’ ...
https://suttacentral.net/mn36/en/sujato
The Buddha-to-be was not an arahant at the time, nor a stream-entrant.

Alara Kalama reached the 7th jhana (if you count the formless realms as the Jhanas) and was not a stream-entrant or anything higher.
Udaka Ramaputta reached the 8th jhana (if you count the formless realms as the Jhanas) and was not a stream-entrant or anything higher.
(The formless realms come after the four jhanas; after the four rupa-jhanas.)

You are absolutey correct, however Zom's messages have a secondary meaning depending on how you view his/her intention. My mistake was not giving him/her the benefit of doubt, and by extension misinterpreted his/her intention, and thus viewed his/her posts in a negative light which was a perception distorted by my ego.

He/She is not necessarily disagreeing with the monks/suttas

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by DNS » Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:42 pm

budo wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:26 pm
You are absolutey correct, however Zom's messages have a secondary meaning depending on how you view his/her intention.
He/She is not necessarily disagreeing with the monks/suttas
I was making a general comment, not necessarily disagreeing with Zom. I agree with Zom that it is a gradual path and not something that can be attained easily. I accept the sutta position that it is not impossible but also not easy; i.e., some where in the middle. 8-)


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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by budo » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:00 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:47 pm
btw Budo, what postures do you use?
Mostly sitting, and laying posture at night in bed because most of the time I have too much concentration to sleep so I meditate instead.

I admit I do not do enough walking meditation, and should do it more often for health reasons, my digestion is weak as a result and I am extremely sensitive to foods.

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:07 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:41 pm
It was a misunderstanding on my part based description of The First Jhana as with 4 factors without one pointedness.... For the record; I am still not sure what to make of it and if the First Jhana can be without absorbtion. Terminology is confusing. Don't want to say wrong things so i don't really know.
Personally, I have no doubts about it. The suttas appear to say each jhana includes one pointedness.
Āraddhaṃ kho pana me, bhikkhave, vīriyaṃ ahosi asallīnaṃ, upaṭṭhitā sati asammuṭṭhā, passaddho kāyo asāraddho, samāhitaṃ cittaṃ ekaggaṃ.

Unflagging persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled mindfulness established. My body was calm & unaroused, my mind concentrated & single. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana....

MN 19
There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind (cittekaggatā), contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity & attention — he ferreted them out one after another.

MN 111
The first jhana has five factors. There is the case where, in a monk who has attained the five-factored first jhana, there occurs directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure & singleness of mind. It's in this way that the first jhana has five factors."

MN 43
:alien:
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:48 pm
In my own words one trains seeing things such as painful and pleasant feelings, the mindstates and activities as they are....
To me, the above sounds like a very "lofty" way of describing attempting to overcome hindrances.
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:48 pm
and when the understanding and concentration are strong enough one attains the path and Nibbana, this is absorbtion attainment where there is no perception of neither the world nor the mental and physical phenomena.
The above does not sound like jhana to me. It appears the suttas do not say Nirodha-Samapatti is a jhana or Nibbana.

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:33 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:07 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:48 pm
In my own words one trains seeing things such as painful and pleasant feelings, the mindstates and activities as they are....
To me, the above sounds like a very "lofty" way of describing attempting to overcome hindrances.
"For a person experiencing pleasure, there is no need for an act of will, 'May my mind grow concentrated.' It is in the nature of things that the mind of a person experiencing pleasure grows concentrated.

"For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things as they actually are.

"For a person who knows & sees things as they actually are, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I feel disenchantment.' It is in the nature of things that a person who knows & sees things as they actually are feels disenchantment.

"For a person who feels disenchantment, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I grow dispassionate.' It is in the nature of things that a person who feels disenchantment grows dispassionate.

"For a dispassionate person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I realize the knowledge & vision of release.' It is in the nature of things that a dispassionate person realizes the knowledge & vision of release.

"In this way, dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward. Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward. Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward. Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward. Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward.

"In this way, mental qualities lead on to mental qualities, mental qualities bring mental qualities to their consummation, for the sake of going from the near to the Further Shore."
‘I’ve struggled hard to realize this,
enough with trying to explain it!
This teaching is not easily understood
by those mired in greed and hate.

Those caught up in greed can’t see
what’s subtle, going against the stream,
deep, hard to see, and very fine,
for they’re shrouded in a mass of darkness.’
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:07 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:48 pm
and when the understanding and concentration are strong enough one attains the path and Nibbana, this is absorbtion attainment where there is no perception of neither the world nor the mental and physical phenomena.
The above does not sound like jhana to me. It appears the suttas do not say Nirodha-Samapatti is a jhana or Nibbana.
"'This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said."
Nibbana Sutta: Unbinding

I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
As i understand it attainment of the fruition can be refered to as lokuttara jhana and this is explained in the Abhidhamma. I may be wrong about the term nirodha-samapatti tho.

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by Pondera » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:50 am

I have entered all eight jhanas sequentially without much effort or trouble many times. Once you realize that “rupa” jhana refers to the four great elements; once you discover those elements in your heart - the first four jhanas are easy to attain. I’m not referring to Buddhaghosa’s idea of jhana.

As for the immaterial - reach for “space” and you will have it. Reach for “consciousness”; for “nothingness”; for “neither perception nor non-perception” ... it’s easy.

Nibbana is the difficult one. I have achieved it through dry insight into dukkha once. And I have achieved “the sign less” through samatha once. I don’t attain Nibbana regularly due to time restrictions. However I am well aware of the karmic necessities that the lower jhana have with regards to one’s past, future, and present - eradicating the basis for consciousness to cling in the mind.

It’s not rocket science. You just have to suffer great lengths and be optimistic about that suffering coming to an end.
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by Pondera » Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:03 am

And ... I’ve learned that even in the presence of a modern beacon of truth - such as one who is me; internet people either don’t care or don’t believe anything that you have to say about jhana BECAUSE jhana is so hard to obtain or elusive. And it is when you don’t know what to focus on.
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by Pondera » Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:15 am

One last ditch effort to share my wisdom with everyone here before I go.



That’s a manual for tranquility and pleasure and pain relief of all kind. I wrote it a few years back. Make of it what you will.

Namaste
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by cappuccino » Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:22 am

always being calm is very difficult

being calm for a moment is possible

in moments of calm, you can have insight

moments of jhana

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by one_awakening » Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:50 am

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:05 pm
Jhana = calmness


Yes. I would also add, Jhana = letting go





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Last edited by one_awakening on Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:01 am, edited 4 times in total.
“You only lose what you cling to”

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by one_awakening » Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:56 am

Pondera wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:50 am
I don’t attain Nibbana regularly due to time restrictions
People got criticized in this thread for just saying they occasionally enter the Jhanas.
“You only lose what you cling to”

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by cappuccino » Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:02 am

Ramana Maharshi mastered a jhana

how?

he basically lost interest in everything else

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