Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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rightviewftw
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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:48 pm

It is hard to explain the progression of insight meditation in technical terms such as momentary concentration and vipassana-jhanas and i would need to study a lot more to do it.

In my own words one trains seeing things such as painful and pleasant feelings, the mindstates and activities as they are and when the understanding and concentration are strong enough one attains the path and Nibbana, this is absorbtion attainment where there is no perception of neither the world nor the mental and physical phenomena.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:59 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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SDC
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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by SDC » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:49 pm

budo wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:29 pm
That's fine, we should still strive to get the farthest we can with the best resources we have available. We must be proactive at all times.
I couldn't agree more.

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by budo » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:52 pm

@zom

I may have come off too hard on you. I am sorry. I will try to be optimistic more in the future if you can also have a little more faith in the community.
Last edited by budo on Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Zom
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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by Zom » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:01 pm

You can doubt my attainments all you want, it doesn't affect me, but to purposely try to demotivate others from attempting to practice is absolutely unacceptable behaviour.
I dissuade from overestimation and wrong perception of jhana, and I think this is quite helpful for everyone.

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by budo » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:05 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:01 pm
You can doubt my attainments all you want, it doesn't affect me, but to purposely try to demotivate others from attempting to practice is absolutely unacceptable behaviour.
I dissuade from overestimation and wrong perception of jhana, and I think this is quite helpful for everyone.
I understand, at the end of the day

- The jhanas are available to anyone who is willing to work hard for them
- We should encourage people to work hard for what's worth it in life because almost everything in life is not worth the effort, and if anything is worth the effort it is sila, samadhi, panna

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by SDC » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:06 pm

budo wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:57 pm
You can doubt my attainments all you want, it doesn't affect me, but to purposely try to demotivate others from attempting to practice is absolutely unacceptable behaviour.
I've seen Zom post a lot over the years and can say with much assurance and certainty that he is not trying to demotivate anyone. I have often shared the same concerns and indeed it is primarily for people to keep a questioning attitude. It is easy to taken by novelty experiences, so it is good to be cautious.

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:07 pm

budo wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:12 pm
If instead of focusing on the stable nimitta you move your attention to pleasant feelings first jhana will grow and you will get absorbed into it if you do not interrupt it with excitement or fear. Just like stepping into cold water inch by inch you do the same with jhana until you are no longer scared. This took me a while because seeing white and not breathing made me think I was going to die.

There is a lot more I can write, feel free to ask any question.
What happens if you focus on the nimitta?

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by Zom » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:18 pm

I've seen Zom post a lot over the years and can say with much assurance and certainty that he is not trying to demotivate anyone. I have often shared the same concerns and indeed it is primarily for people to keep a questioning attitude. It is easy to taken by novelty experiences, so it is good to be cautious.
:toast:
I understand, at the end of the day

- The jhanas are available to anyone who is willing to work hard for them
- We should encourage people to work hard for what's worth it in life because almost everything in life is not worth the effort, and if anything is worth the effort it is sila, samadhi, panna
This is so, without a doubt. But, I would add something here:
a) one should understand his real potential (not everyone is gonna be a champion, even if he does his best - at least, not in this life)
b) one should know well and understand well the stages of gradual practice of Buddhist Path and move accordingly without short-cuts (hint: there are none). I wrote about this extensively and keep speaking about this again and again - because modern trend in Buddhism is to ignore or overlook this very idea.

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by budo » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:22 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:07 pm
budo wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:12 pm
If instead of focusing on the stable nimitta you move your attention to pleasant feelings first jhana will grow and you will get absorbed into it if you do not interrupt it with excitement or fear. Just like stepping into cold water inch by inch you do the same with jhana until you are no longer scared. This took me a while because seeing white and not breathing made me think I was going to die.

There is a lot more I can write, feel free to ask any question.
What happens if you focus on the nimitta
From my personal experience

- It brightens until it covers your whole field of vision, usually around the 1-2 hour mark
- Pictures will come about like landscapes of places or people's faces usually around the 4-6 hour mark
- Visions of past life, when in laying posture, full insomnia, and 8+ hours of meditation. Only had this once in my life on a retreat with full insomnia and meditating all night.
- Orb nimitta is still visible (between eyebrows) even with eyes open and you move your head around during day time, this is when I had the strongest divine eye ever in my life and saw beings clearer than ever that night. I have tried many many times to reproduce this and the conditions for this, but have failed. I've only been able to reproduce a weak night time divine eye since.
Last edited by budo on Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:25 pm

budo wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:22 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:07 pm
budo wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:12 pm
If instead of focusing on the stable nimitta you move your attention to pleasant feelings first jhana will grow and you will get absorbed into it if you do not interrupt it with excitement or fear. Just like stepping into cold water inch by inch you do the same with jhana until you are no longer scared. This took me a while because seeing white and not breathing made me think I was going to die.

There is a lot more I can write, feel free to ask any question.
What happens if you focus on the nimitta
From my personal experience

- It brightens until it covers your whole field of vision, usually around the 1-2 hour mark
- Pictures will come about like landscapes of places or people's faces usually around the 4-6 hour mark
- Visions of past life, when in laying posture, full insomnia, and 8+ hours of meditation. Only had this once in my life on a retreat with full insomnia and meditating all night.
- Orb nimitta is still visible even with eyes open and you move your head around during day time, this is when I had the strongest divine eye ever in my life and saw beings clearer than ever that night. I have tried many many times to reproduce this and the conditions for this, but have failed. I've only been able to reproduce a weak night time divine eye since.
Why do you switch to the pleasant feeling then? Why not just take the Nimitta for absorbtion?

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by budo » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:31 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:25 pm
budo wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:22 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:07 pm


What happens if you focus on the nimitta
From my personal experience

- It brightens until it covers your whole field of vision, usually around the 1-2 hour mark
- Pictures will come about like landscapes of places or people's faces usually around the 4-6 hour mark
- Visions of past life, when in laying posture, full insomnia, and 8+ hours of meditation. Only had this once in my life on a retreat with full insomnia and meditating all night.
- Orb nimitta is still visible even with eyes open and you move your head around during day time, this is when I had the strongest divine eye ever in my life and saw beings clearer than ever that night. I have tried many many times to reproduce this and the conditions for this, but have failed. I've only been able to reproduce a weak night time divine eye since.
Why do you switch to the pleasant feeling then? Why not just take the Nimitta for absorbtion?
Once bliss and rapture are present I can sit for what feels like forever, then I can return to the visual nimitta and spend hours on it. If I ignore the good feelings then the window of opportunity will pass and the hindrances will come back and I won't be able to sit long hours.

Furthermore, rapture and bliss are the two of five factors of first jhana and I practice anapanasati sutta which traverses from body to feeling to mind to dhamma, so I want to cover all bases.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:46 pm

budo wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:31 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:25 pm
budo wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:22 pm


From my personal experience

- It brightens until it covers your whole field of vision, usually around the 1-2 hour mark
- Pictures will come about like landscapes of places or people's faces usually around the 4-6 hour mark
- Visions of past life, when in laying posture, full insomnia, and 8+ hours of meditation. Only had this once in my life on a retreat with full insomnia and meditating all night.
- Orb nimitta is still visible even with eyes open and you move your head around during day time, this is when I had the strongest divine eye ever in my life and saw beings clearer than ever that night. I have tried many many times to reproduce this and the conditions for this, but have failed. I've only been able to reproduce a weak night time divine eye since.
Why do you switch to the pleasant feeling then? Why not just take the Nimitta for absorbtion?
Once bliss and rapture are present I can sit for what feels like forever, then I can return to the visual nimitta and spend hours on it. If I ignore the good feelings then the window of opportunity will pass and the hindrances will come back and I won't be able to sit long hours.

Furthermore, rapture and bliss are the two of five factors of first jhana and I practice anapanasati sutta which traverses from body to feeling to mind to dhamma, so I want to cover all bases.
I don't really get it but it is inspiring :popcorn:

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by budo » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:52 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:46 pm
budo wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:31 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:25 pm

Why do you switch to the pleasant feeling then? Why not just take the Nimitta for absorbtion?
Once bliss and rapture are present I can sit for what feels like forever, then I can return to the visual nimitta and spend hours on it. If I ignore the good feelings then the window of opportunity will pass and the hindrances will come back and I won't be able to sit long hours.

Furthermore, rapture and bliss are the two of five factors of first jhana and I practice anapanasati sutta which traverses from body to feeling to mind to dhamma, so I want to cover all bases.
I don't really get it but it is inspiring :popcorn:
In the sittings where I was focused on the nimitta because I desparetly wanted the divine eye again I would end up ignoring pleasant feelings and then I would run out of "steam", patience, energy and give up.

If instead I allow rapture and bliss to grow and absorb me then I do not run out of steam and can meditate for very long hours.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:59 pm

budo wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:52 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:46 pm
budo wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:31 pm


Once bliss and rapture are present I can sit for what feels like forever, then I can return to the visual nimitta and spend hours on it. If I ignore the good feelings then the window of opportunity will pass and the hindrances will come back and I won't be able to sit long hours.

Furthermore, rapture and bliss are the two of five factors of first jhana and I practice anapanasati sutta which traverses from body to feeling to mind to dhamma, so I want to cover all bases.
I don't really get it but it is inspiring :popcorn:
In the sittings where I was focused on the nimitta because I desparetly wanted the divine eye again I would end up ignoring pleasant feelings and then I would run out of "steam", patience, energy and give up.

If instead I allow rapture and bliss to grow and absorb me then I do not run out of steam and can meditate for very long hours.
I still do not get it because it is hard to reconcile all these things that i have not experienced and make sense of it but it is not that important for me now anyway. Good luck with you training.

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by budo » Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:00 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:18 pm
I've seen Zom post a lot over the years and can say with much assurance and certainty that he is not trying to demotivate anyone. I have often shared the same concerns and indeed it is primarily for people to keep a questioning attitude. It is easy to taken by novelty experiences, so it is good to be cautious.
:toast:
I understand, at the end of the day

- The jhanas are available to anyone who is willing to work hard for them
- We should encourage people to work hard for what's worth it in life because almost everything in life is not worth the effort, and if anything is worth the effort it is sila, samadhi, panna
This is so, without a doubt. But, I would add something here:
a) one should understand his real potential (not everyone is gonna be a champion, even if he does his best - at least, not in this life)
b) one should know well and understand well the stages of gradual practice of Buddhist Path and move accordingly without short-cuts (hint: there are none). I wrote about this extensively and keep speaking about this again and again - because modern trend in Buddhism is to ignore or overlook this very idea.
I don't think there are short cuts when it comes to jhanas. If you lack sila and livelihood you won't enter the jhanas anyway.

From my understanding the only short cut is sunnata (emptiness) according to Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, but I do not know enough about this topic and this can be discussed in another thread.

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