Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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budo
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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by budo » Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:45 am

My goal is to master the sutta jhanas, if anyone has this as their goal or has already achieved this goal please do not fear those who do not believe you, they cannot harm you. At worst you'll realize you have misunderstood a sutta and have more work to do, at best you'll get to enjoy the jhanas and help others too.

There is nothing to lose, and everything to gain, so there is no reason to be discouraged. Please join this group and let's help eachother.

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DooDoot
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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:19 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:33 am
"In this way, mental qualities lead on to mental qualities, mental qualities bring mental qualities to their consummation, for the sake of going from the near to the Further Shore."
The above quote is irrelevant. Again, the Buddha did not speak English.
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:33 am
‘I’ve struggled hard to realize this,
enough with trying to explain it!
This teaching is not easily understood
by those mired in greed and hate.

Those caught up in greed can’t see
what’s subtle, going against the stream,
deep, hard to see, and very fine,
for they’re shrouded in a mass of darkness.’
This quote appears to apply to the quoter of it.
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:48 pm
'This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said."
The above quote is irrelevant to the discussion. Regardless, posting this quote does not necessarily mean the quoter has attained it.
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:48 pm
When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"
This quote was already refuted. Ven. Sariputta did not ever say Nibbana is where there is nothing felt. Udayin said it.
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:33 am
As i understand it attainment of the fruition can be refered to as lokuttara jhana and this is explained in the Abhidhamma. I may be wrong about the term nirodha-samapatti tho.
Whatever is written above, convolutedly, it is wrong. Nirodha-samapatti is not Nibbana. Nibbana is quoted extensively at this short thread.
It’s also hard for them to see this thing; that is, the calming of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the destruction of craving, fading away, cessation, Nibbana.

MN 26
Now this is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering. It’s the fading away and cessation of that very same craving with nothing left over; giving it away, letting it go, releasing it, and not clinging to it.

SN 56.11
These two Nibbāna-elements were made known By the Seeing One, stable and unattached: One is the element seen here and now With residue, but with the cord of being destroyed; The other, having no residue for the future, Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease.

Iti 44
My mind has reached the Unconditioned; I have attained the destruction of craving.

Dhp 154

And what is the unconditioned?

The ending of greed, hate, and delusion.

SN 43.12
What is the deathless? And what is the path that leads to the deathless?

The ending of greed, hate, and delusion.

SN 45.7
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Saengnapha
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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:09 am

auto wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:14 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:02 pm
Zom wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:10 pm


Probably, a community of wishful thinkers, at best. Jhana is superhuman attainment, very close to arahantship, and so a hard thing to get. I heard many speak about their jhanas, but no one can sit at least half a day in 1 uninterrupted session, which is an obvious outcome of true jhanic attainment.
Sounds like you are talking about a yogi, not an arahant. Where does the Buddha preach about these kinds of attainments being the point of his teaching? Why would he even bother with things like tilakhanna and PS?
What i guess is that comes from listening formless realm devas or dwellers, they have no form to draw correct reasoning.
too abstract for my puny intellect.

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:10 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:19 am
You can think what you want really, before long you will be gone but the teachings of Mahasi Sayadaw, insight meditation and Abhidhamma will remain. You are not going to successfully refute it no matter how many select passages you quote, i would debate you but it is a waste of time because you will again call fake Sutta or irrationally interperet Sutta like ie "Sariputta didn't say Nibbana is pleasure where nothing is felt".
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:33 am
Nibbana Sutta: Unbinding

I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:19 am
This quote was already refuted. Ven. Sariputta did not ever say Nibbana is where there is nothing felt. Udayin said it.
You should learn the difference between a random statement, a comment and a refutation. Because it is most obvious that Udayin said and it and Sariputta confirmed it, even more he explicitly says;
"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
If you want to spend your life convincing others that Sariputta did not proclaim Nibbana as pleasure where nothing is felt, that there is no path and fruit, no lokuttara citta, no insight knowledge, that Mahasi Sayadaw is utterly wrong in the interpretation of attainments, that The Third Noble Truth does not refer to the Unmade Element and Seeing Third Noble Truth does not refer to Seeing Nibbana, you should write a paper or a serious work attempting to refute those things rather than typing stuff that nobody should be taking seriously on the internet but you can do what you want, each to their own.

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budo
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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by budo » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:23 am

In an attempt to end the dispute between doot and rightviewftw.

You should focus on what is actionable. As I said the vipassana practice is simply khanika samadhi.

Therefore you only have two options: stay with the object, or move your attention to the most prominent object.

That's really what all this boils down to and is not worth the pages of debate.

Simply give yourself 3-6 months of daily practice in either method and what reaps the most benefit for you, then you should stay with and develop further.

Personally I am not of the temperament to do vipassana as I have an addictive personality, vipassana made meditation unenjoyable for me and I would fall for traps like video games. Whereas samadhi jhana gives me pleasure and rapture and thus I can use that as a base for sitting long hours and contemplating the dhamma subjects. Furthermore jhanas remove my desires for sensual things and thus I no longer return to video games and other addictions.

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:35 am

budo wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:23 am
In an attempt to end the dispute between doot and rightviewftw.

You should focus on what is actionable. As I said the vipassana practice is simply khanika samadhi.
I am pretty sure he rejects the whole of the Abhidhamma pitaka as fake and therefore will say "Khanika samadhi was not taught by the historical Buddha" he does reject some Sutta too. There is no dispute really and i will go back to ignoring him.

Also this is for you Doot
"In the same way, an excellent thoroughbred of a man, having gone to the wilderness, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, dwells with his awareness not overcome by sensual passion, not obsessed with sensual passion. He discerns the escape, as it actually is present, from sensual passion once it has arisen.

"He dwells with his awareness not overcome by ill will... sloth & drowsiness... restlessness & anxiety... uncertainty, obsessed with uncertainty. He discerns the escape, as it actually is present, from uncertainty once it has arisen.

"He is absorbed dependent neither on earth, liquid, fire, wind, the sphere of the infinitude of space, the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, this world, the next world, nor on whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect — and yet he is absorbed. And to this excellent thoroughbred of a man, absorbed in this way, the gods, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, pay homage even from afar:

'Homage to you, O thoroughbred man.
Homage to you, O superlative man —
you of whom we don't know even what it is
dependent on which
you're absorbed.'"
Reference to supramundane absorbtion from the Sutta and what might it be?
Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding (1)

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. And on that occasion the Blessed One was instructing, urging, rousing, & encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:09 pm

:candle:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:11 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:09 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:10 am
You can think what you want really, before long you will be gone but the teachings of Mahasi Sayadaw, insight meditation and Abhidhamma will remain. You are not going to successfully refute it no matter how many select passages you quote
The above shows not taking refuge in the Buddha-Dhamma.
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:10 am
i would debate you but it is a waste of time because you will again call fake Sutta or irrationally interperet Sutta like ie "Sariputta didn't say Nibbana is pleasure where nothing is felt".
Sariputta didn't say Nibbana is pleasure where nothing is felt. Sariputta did not speak English. Sariputta said: "Nibbana is pleasant".
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:10 am
If you want to spend your life convincing others that Sariputta did not proclaim Nibbana as pleasure where nothing is felt
Sariputta did not say what you claim he said. It is IMPOSSIBLE.
just because you do not understand how cessation of feeling might be pleasant does not mean that it is impossible alsoit is quite clear that what it is meant is exactly that. Nibbana is the highest bliss, primary happiness and of course it is pleasant. It is also the cessation of feeling and utter most likely is what is refered to as cessation of perception and feeling attainment as is demonstrated by the quotes above. Go ahead and make a thread refuting those exact Sutta passages in a different thread.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:12 pm

:candle:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:16 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:12 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:11 pm
just because you do not understand how cessation of feeling might be pleasant does not mean that it is impossible
The cessation of feeling is UNCONSCIOUSNESS. It cannot be said to be "pleasant".
But he said it xD You are perplexed just like Udayin was, it is understandable but you are wrong in assuming that it is impossible.

As i said make a new thread if you want to discuss this.

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:19 pm

:candle:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:22 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:12 pm
The word "dimension" is "ayatana". It is an "object". Nibbana is an "object".
Just because you translate a word differently it might or may not be accurate and the meaning may or may not be retained.

As i said let's not derail this thread with your not-favorite Sutta discussion, would be good if moderators split it.

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:22 pm

:candle:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:24 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:19 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:16 pm
But he said it xD You are perplexed just like Udayin was, it is understandable but you are wrong in assuming that it is impossible.
Its IMPOSSIBLE because many many many suttas refute your interpretation. Those suttas were quoted. AN 9.34 must be understood in line with the main teachings; otherwise it is to be rejected per the Great References.
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:16 pm
As i said make a new thread if you want to discuss this.
Puthujjana cannot know the Dhamma. It is impossible. Your Dhamma understanding is not sufficient for a "cordial discussion".
How badly do those Sutta trigger you from 1-10?

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Re: Has anyone here mastered any of the jhanas?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:25 pm

:candle:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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