Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Saengnapha
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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by Saengnapha » Sun May 27, 2018 4:34 am

Dmytro wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 8:05 pm
Kumara wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 2:40 am
I've seen statements like "When one is in jhana, all defilements are suppressed temporarily." Is there any scriptural source for this?
No.

This may have evolved from Patisambhidamagga:

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/pahaana.htm
But what does your own experience tell you? Are your defilements permanently gone when you are not experiencing jhana? If so, can you stay in jhana indefinitely? Is there any scriptual source that says you must stay in jhana perpetually?

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Kumara
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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by Kumara » Wed May 30, 2018 6:47 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 11:07 am
Could perhaps upakilesa refer to specific states listed in Upakilesa Sutta such as inattention, excess energy etc rather than defilements in a broader sense?
That's an interesting point. Thanks.

Assuming that's correct, then "upakkilesa" in MahaSaccaka Sutta (MN36) actually just refers to blemish/imperfection of mind (cittassa upakkilesa), a term occurring elsewhere in MN meaning such.
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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Kumara
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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by Kumara » Wed May 30, 2018 9:06 am

Polar Bear wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 11:36 am
There is this:
“Not for all pleasant feeling, friend Visākha, (is there) a tendency to passion that should be abandoned, not for all unpleasant feeling (is there) a tendency to repulsion that should be abandoned, not for all neither-unpleasant-nor-pleasant feeling (is there) a tendency to ignorance that should be abandoned.
Here, friend Visākha, a monastic, quite secluded from sense desires, secluded from unwholesome things, having thinking, reflection, and the happiness and rapture born of seclusion, dwells having attained the first absorption. On that basis passion is abandoned, and herein there is no more underlying tendency to passion.
Here, friend Visākha, a monastic considers thus: ‘When will I dwell having attained that sphere that the Noble Ones now dwell in having attained that sphere?’ Thus a longing to give attendance towards that unsurpassed freedom arises and with longing as condition sorrow (arises). On that basis repulsion is abandoned, and herein there is no more underlying tendency to repulsion.
Here, friend Visākha, a monastic, having given up pleasure, given up pain, and with the previous disappearence of mental well-being and sorrow, without pain, without pleasure, and with complete purity of mindfulness owing to equanimity, dwells having attained the fourth absorption. On that basis ignorance is abandoned, and herein there is no more underlying tendency to ignorance.”

https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/anandajoti
:anjali:
Would you mind explaining what this is meant to explain?
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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Kumara
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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by Kumara » Wed May 30, 2018 9:19 am

Dmytro wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 8:05 pm
Kumara wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 2:40 am
I've seen statements like "When one is in jhana, all defilements are suppressed temporarily." Is there any scriptural source for this?
No.

This may have evolved from Patisambhidamagga:

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/pahaana.htm
Thanks. I see "vikkhambhana-pahāna" there for the hindrances. So, you mean it went from "pahāna" to "vikkhambhana-pahāna" to "vikkhambhana". Hmm... these commentaries really have created a lot of problems.

Even then, no scripture, early or exegetical has the idea of "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana".
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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Kumara
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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by Kumara » Wed May 30, 2018 9:37 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 1:43 pm
So in regards to this;
Kumara wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 9:54 am
It seems one engaging in the fourth jhana is like an arahant, but not in lesser jhanas. Thanks!
An Arahant is not always in the 4th Jhana as i interperet it but i may be wrong. An Arahant is consumate in virtue, in concentration and discernment therefore no delusion as i understand it.
(Red highlights above mine.)

I don't see how what I said suggests that an Arahant is always in the 4th Jhana. If he is, then there's no point in saying arahants are "catunnaṃ jhānānaṃ ... nikāmalābhī" (obtainers-at-will of the four jhanas).

Btw, it would be good for us to post answers and disagreements only when we are fairly certain. Otherwise, we're just adding clutter to this forum.
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

rightviewftw
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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by rightviewftw » Wed May 30, 2018 9:39 am

Kumara wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 9:37 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 1:43 pm
So in regards to this;
Kumara wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 9:54 am
It seems one engaging in the fourth jhana is like an arahant, but not in lesser jhanas. Thanks!
An Arahant is not always in the 4th Jhana as i interperet it but i may be wrong. An Arahant is consumate in virtue, in concentration and discernment therefore no delusion as i understand it.
(Red highlights above mine.)

I don't see how what I said suggests that an Arahant is always in the 4th Jhana. If he is, then there's no point in saying arahants are "catunnaṃ jhānānaṃ ... nikāmalābhī" (obtainers-at-will of the four jhanas).

Btw, it would be good for us to post answers and disagreements only when we are fairly certain. Otherwise, we're just adding clutter to this forum.
It is just that you said a person in the fourth jhana is like an Arahant so i entertained the idea. It got messy i agree.

paul
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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by paul » Thu May 31, 2018 6:40 pm

In AN 9:40 for example, the hindrances are first abandoned and entry into the first jhana is achieved. The hindrances cannot arise during immersion in the jhana as the mind is fixed on one-pointedness and the other factors of the first jhana. In this sense, the hindrances are suppressed. It is temporary, as jhana can be achieved before stream-entry, but the fetters do not begin to be permanently eradicated until that attainment.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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Kumara
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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by Kumara » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:44 am

paul wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 6:40 pm
In AN 9:40 for example, the hindrances are first abandoned and entry into the first jhana is achieved. The hindrances cannot arise during immersion in the jhana as the mind is fixed on one-pointedness and the other factors of the first jhana. In this sense, the hindrances are suppressed. It is temporary, as jhana can be achieved before stream-entry, but the fetters do not begin to be permanently eradicated until that attainment.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Correct, hindrances to true meditation (jhana), not "all defilements".
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

paul
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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by paul » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:44 am

Kumara wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:44 am
Correct, hindrances to true meditation (jhana), not "all defilements".
The hindrances are called ‘nivarana’ which seems to imply semantically they are the opposite of nibbana, indicating a more comprehensive role than simply barriers to absorption, but relating them to the fetters is complex, whose role is more cosmic:

“Only six of the 10 fetters (saṁyojana) overlap in some important way with the 5 hindrances. As the fetters are mental defilements (that bind us to the various planes of samsara), kāma,c-chanda (sensuous desire) is taken as kāma,rāga (sensuous lust) (which keeps us in the sense-world), rūpa,rāga (which keeps us to the form world), and arūpa,rāga (which keeps us to the formless world). “

Piya Tan goes on to say that the reference to covetousness and displeasure in the refrain of the Satipatthana sutta signifies the five hindrances, which seems to link them to the three unwholesome roots:

Here, bhikkhus
A. a monk dwells exertive, clearly comprehending, mindful, observing [watching] the
body in the body, removing covetousness and displeasure in the world;---Satipatthana sutta MN 10

"2.1.3 In fact, since these two key mental hindrances, the parents, as it were, of all other hindrances, they are a synecdoche (or inclusive term) for all the 5 mental hindrances.
This is confirmed by the Mahā Assa,pura Sutta (M 39), which has a passage that elaborates on what is only briefly stated in the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta passage above. Here, the Mahā Assa,pura Sutta passage describes, in detail, the 5 hindrances and how to overcome them, so that we are able to go on to attain dhyana, thus:
23
Bhikshus, what more should be done? Here, bhikshus, a monk seeks out a secluded dwell-
ing: a forest, the foot of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw.
Returning from his almsround, after his meal, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body upright, and establishes mindfulness before him.
24 (1) Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world,
he dwells with a mind devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness.
(2) Abandoning ill will and anger,
he dwells with a mind free of ill will, caring for the welfare of all living beings.
He cleanses his mind of ill will and anger. (3) Abandoning sloth and torpor,
26 he dwells with a mind devoid of sloth and torpor, mindful, alert, perceiving light.
He cleanses his mind of sloth and torpor. (4) Abandoning restlessness and worry,
he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled.” —-“Nivarana”, Piya Tan

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Kumara
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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by Kumara » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:28 am

paul wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:44 am
Kumara wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:44 am
Correct, hindrances to true meditation (jhana), not "all defilements".
The hindrances are called ‘nivarana’ which seems to imply semantically they are the opposite of nibbana
It seems to, in your opinion. But does it make sense?

As you quoted Piya, “Only six of the 10 fetters (saṁyojana) overlap in some important way with the 5 hindrances." Since the others don't, it clearly implies that they are still present regardless of one's level of jhāna, so long as one is not freed from them through awakening.

This is supported by AN4.123, which says both the instructed noble disciple and the uninstructed worldling enjoys (assādeti) and desires (nikāmeti) the jhāna attained. (See Ajahn Ṭhānissaro’s translation at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html)

Paul, please take time to think carefully before you disagree.
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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