Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Sam Vara
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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by Sam Vara » Thu May 24, 2018 8:41 am

There is this in the Maha-Saccaka Sutta, where the 4th Jhana (at least) is described as being free from defilements:
When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

I can recall others where lack of the defilements is listed as one of the characteristics of Jhana, but they often involve a section where the removal of the defilements by other (i.e. non-jhanic) means precedes the attainments of the jhana, as if such removal is the precondition for jhana. But this one seems more "stand alone", as it were.

In this particular case, the term is viviccati, which is more like secluded or separated from, rather than suppression. I don't know what "suppression" would be in Pali, or even whether there is a term which is more like the English word.

Apologies if this is not what you meant.

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Kumara
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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by Kumara » Thu May 24, 2018 9:45 am

So far it seems there's no scriptural source for this. It's probably just an evolved misunderstanding.
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Kumara
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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by Kumara » Thu May 24, 2018 9:54 am

Sorry. Just saw your post.
Sam Vara wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 8:41 am
There is this in the Maha-Saccaka Sutta, where the 4th Jhana (at least) is described as being free from defilements:
When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Hmm... this may be the closest thing there is. The Pali for that is vigatūpakkilese. Vigata is literally "gone away". It seems one engaging in the fourth jhana is like an arahant, but not in lesser jhanas. Thanks!
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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Kumara
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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by Kumara » Thu May 24, 2018 10:14 am

However, I wonder if saying the mind is "vigatūpakkilesa" also means the mind is freed—even if just temporarily—from all samyojanas (fetters), e.g., I am’ conceit (māna), non-sensual desire, own-self view, passion for form and for the formless.

Now, I'm wondering if "upakkilesa" may have a more limited meaning than what we now commonly believe.
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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by Polar Bear » Thu May 24, 2018 11:36 am

There is this:
“Not for all pleasant feeling, friend Visākha, (is there) a tendency to passion that should be abandoned, not for all unpleasant feeling (is there) a tendency to repulsion that should be abandoned, not for all neither-unpleasant-nor-pleasant feeling (is there) a tendency to ignorance that should be abandoned.
Here, friend Visākha, a monastic, quite secluded from sense desires, secluded from unwholesome things, having thinking, reflection, and the happiness and rapture born of seclusion, dwells having attained the first absorption. On that basis passion is abandoned, and herein there is no more underlying tendency to passion.
Here, friend Visākha, a monastic considers thus: ‘When will I dwell having attained that sphere that the Noble Ones now dwell in having attained that sphere?’ Thus a longing to give attendance towards that unsurpassed freedom arises and with longing as condition sorrow (arises). On that basis repulsion is abandoned, and herein there is no more underlying tendency to repulsion.
Here, friend Visākha, a monastic, having given up pleasure, given up pain, and with the previous disappearence of mental well-being and sorrow, without pain, without pleasure, and with complete purity of mindfulness owing to equanimity, dwells having attained the fourth absorption. On that basis ignorance is abandoned, and herein there is no more underlying tendency to ignorance.”

https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/anandajoti
:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by rightviewftw » Fri May 25, 2018 12:08 pm

I think these excerpts may be relative to the discussion.
There are, Ānanda, these six elements: the pleasure element, the pain element, the joy element, the grief element, the equanimity element, and the ignorance element. When he knows and sees these six elements, a bhikkhu can be called skilled in the elements.”
How the Blessed One Passed into Nibbana

9. And the Blessed One entered the first jhana. Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And rising out of the fourth jhana, he entered the sphere of infinite space. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite space, he entered the sphere of infinite consciousness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite consciousness, he entered the sphere of nothingness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of nothingness, he entered the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. And rising out of the attainment of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he attained to the cessation of perception and feeling.

10. And the Venerable Ananda spoke to the Venerable Anuruddha, saying: "Venerable Anuruddha, the Blessed One has passed away."

"No, friend Ananda, the Blessed One has not passed away. He has entered the state of the cessation of perception and feeling."[59]

11. Then the Blessed One, rising from the cessation of perception and feeling, entered the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he entered the sphere of nothingness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of nothingness, he entered the sphere of infinite consciousness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite consciousness, he entered the sphere of infinite space. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite space, he entered the fourth jhana. Rising from the fourth jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the first jhana.

Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And, rising from the fourth jhana, the Blessed One immediately passed away.
"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications. When one has attained the first jhāna, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thought & evaluation have ceased. When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has ceased. When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has ceased.

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Zom
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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by Zom » Fri May 25, 2018 1:09 pm

Could perhaps upakilesa refer to specific states listed in Upakilesa Sutta such as inattention, excess energy etc rather than defilements in a broader sense?
Yes, seems so. However, normal hindrances and defilements are also must be "inactive" .)

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rightviewftw
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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by rightviewftw » Fri May 25, 2018 1:43 pm

There are, Ānanda, these six elements: the pleasure element, the pain element, the joy element, the grief element, the equanimity element, and the ignorance element. When he knows and sees these six elements, a bhikkhu can be called skilled in the elements.”
regarding this perhaps i am wrong but i think;
the pleasure element, the pain element, the joy element, the grief element all depend on ignorance(avijjādhātu), having arrived at equanimity(upekkhādhātu) about formations there is neither pleasure nor pain so there is no ignorance(avijjādhātu) about formations.
“What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.
so i assume that arahant is free from Delusion (mohakkhayo) but not free from Ignorance(avijjādhātu) by which he experiences the pain element and the pleasure element.

Therefore the absence of ignorance (avijjādhātu) and the presence of equanimity(upekkhādhātu) is what constitutes the 4th Jhana;
Here, friend Visākha, a monastic, having given up pleasure, given up pain, and with the previous disappearence of mental well-being and sorrow, without pain, without pleasure, and with complete purity of mindfulness owing to equanimity, dwells having attained the fourth absorption. On that basis ignorance is abandoned, and herein there is no more underlying tendency to ignorance.”
So in regards to this;
Kumara wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 9:54 am
It seems one engaging in the fourth jhana is like an arahant, but not in lesser jhanas. Thanks!
An Arahant is not always in the 4th Jhana as i interperet it but i may be wrong. An Arahant is consumate in virtue, in concentration and discernment therefore no delusion as i understand it.

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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by Zom » Fri May 25, 2018 3:42 pm

so i assume that arahant is free from Delusion (mohakkhayo) but not free from Ignorance(avijjādhātu) by which he experiences the pain element and the pleasure element.
Avijja and Moha = synonyms.

Bodily Pain/Pleasure have nothing to do with ignorance.

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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by rightviewftw » Fri May 25, 2018 4:09 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 3:42 pm
so i assume that arahant is free from Delusion (mohakkhayo) but not free from Ignorance(avijjādhātu) by which he experiences the pain element and the pleasure element.
Avijja and Moha = synonyms.
I was talking about Avijjadhatu specifically not Avijja btw.

evidence for this? They are not synonyms in english, not a natural assumption that they should be synonymous in Pali.
If you have some evidence it would be nice. It's just a theory anyway.

What i suggested was that If the there is no Upekkhadhatu then there is Avijjadhatu and Pleasure-element, Pain-Element, Joy-Element, Grief-Element depend on it.

Meaning that Pleasure-element, Pain-element, Joy-element and Grief-Element do no arise without Ignorance-element because without ignorance-element there would be Equanimity-Element and the fourth Jhana basically.

I have no evidence for the Pain-element always arising in dependence on Avija-element.

I am pretty sure that i was wrong actually as i can see a different way it can work;

With Pain-element being with or without ignorance-element. So when not accompanied by Avijja-Dhatu it is merely perceived as is it is, unobstructed by Ignorance-Element. So Vijja is defined by abscence of IAvijja rather than presence of Vijja.

So either abscence of Avijjadhatu does imply presence of Upekkhadhatu or Uperkkhadhatu is Vijja which also makes sense.

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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by rightviewftw » Fri May 25, 2018 5:22 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:09 pm
So either abscence of Avijjadhatu does imply presence of Upekkhadhatu or Uperkkhadhatu is Vijja which also makes sense.
Edit: either Vijja implies the presence of Upekkhadhatu or Vijja can be without Upekhadhatu or they are the same thing.

So it seems like pain-element can be with or without ignorance-element. So when not accompanied by Avijja-Dhatu it is merely perceived as is it is, unobstructed by Ignorance-Element. So Vijja is defined by abscence of Avijja rather than presence of.

So now i think that Arahants have Vijja because they do not have Avijjadhatu.

I don't know about the Upekkhadhatu tho.

Is there an Abhidhamma explaination?

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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by Zom » Fri May 25, 2018 5:49 pm

I was talking about Avijjadhatu specifically not Avijja btw.
These are the same.
evidence for this? They are not synonyms in english, not a natural assumption that they should be synonymous in Pali.
If you have some evidence it would be nice. It's just a theory anyway.
AN 3.66.

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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by rightviewftw » Fri May 25, 2018 5:55 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 5:49 pm
I was talking about Avijjadhatu specifically not Avijja btw.
These are the same.
evidence for this? They are not synonyms in english, not a natural assumption that they should be synonymous in Pali.
If you have some evidence it would be nice. It's just a theory anyway.
AN 3.66.
thanks

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Re: Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

Post by Dmytro » Fri May 25, 2018 8:05 pm

Kumara wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 2:40 am
I've seen statements like "When one is in jhana, all defilements are suppressed temporarily." Is there any scriptural source for this?
No.

This may have evolved from Patisambhidamagga:

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/pahaana.htm

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