Seeking scriptural source for "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana"

[Polar Bear]

There is this:

“Not for all pleasant feeling, friend Visākha, (is there) a tendency to passion that should be abandoned, not for all unpleasant feeling (is there) a tendency to repulsion that should be abandoned, not for all neither-unpleasant-nor-pleasant feeling (is there) a tendency to ignorance that should be abandoned.
Here, friend Visākha, a monastic, quite secluded from sense desires, secluded from unwholesome things, having thinking, reflection, and the happiness and rapture born of seclusion, dwells having attained the first absorption. On that basis passion is abandoned, and herein there is no more underlying tendency to passion.
Here, friend Visākha, a monastic considers thus: ‘When will I dwell having attained that sphere that the Noble Ones now dwell in having attained that sphere?’ Thus a longing to give attendance towards that unsurpassed freedom arises and with longing as condition sorrow (arises). On that basis repulsion is abandoned, and herein there is no more underlying tendency to repulsion.
Here, friend Visākha, a monastic, having given up pleasure, given up pain, and with the previous disappearence of mental well-being and sorrow, without pain, without pleasure, and with complete purity of mindfulness owing to equanimity, dwells having attained the fourth absorption. On that basis ignorance is abandoned, and herein there is no more underlying tendency to ignorance.”

https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/anandajoti

[User1249x]

I think these excerpts may be relative to the discussion.

There are, Ānanda, these six elements: the pleasure element, the pain element, the joy element, the grief element, the equanimity element, and the ignorance element. When he knows and sees these six elements, a bhikkhu can be called skilled in the elements.”

How the Blessed One Passed into Nibbana

9. And the Blessed One entered the first jhana. Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And rising out of the fourth jhana, he entered the sphere of infinite space. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite space, he entered the sphere of infinite consciousness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite consciousness, he entered the sphere of nothingness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of nothingness, he entered the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. And rising out of the attainment of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he attained to the cessation of perception and feeling.

10. And the Venerable Ananda spoke to the Venerable Anuruddha, saying: "Venerable Anuruddha, the Blessed One has passed away."

"No, friend Ananda, the Blessed One has not passed away. He has entered the state of the cessation of perception and feeling."[59]

11. Then the Blessed One, rising from the cessation of perception and feeling, entered the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he entered the sphere of nothingness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of nothingness, he entered the sphere of infinite consciousness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite consciousness, he entered the sphere of infinite space. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite space, he entered the fourth jhana. Rising from the fourth jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the first jhana.

Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And, rising from the fourth jhana, the Blessed One immediately passed away.

"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications. When one has attained the first jhāna, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thought & evaluation have ceased. When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has ceased. When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has ceased.

[Zom]

Could perhaps upakilesa refer to specific states listed in Upakilesa Sutta such as inattention, excess energy etc rather than defilements in a broader sense?

Yes, seems so. However, normal hindrances and defilements are also must be "inactive" .)

[User1249x]

There are, Ānanda, these six elements: the pleasure element, the pain element, the joy element, the grief element, the equanimity element, and the ignorance element. When he knows and sees these six elements, a bhikkhu can be called skilled in the elements.”

regarding this perhaps i am wrong but i think;
the pleasure element, the pain element, the joy element, the grief element all depend on ignorance(avijjādhātu), having arrived at equanimity(upekkhādhātu) about formations there is neither pleasure nor pain so there is no ignorance(avijjādhātu) about formations.

“What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.

so i assume that arahant is free from Delusion (mohakkhayo) but not free from Ignorance(avijjādhātu) by which he experiences the pain element and the pleasure element.

Therefore the absence of ignorance (avijjādhātu) and the presence of equanimity(upekkhādhātu) is what constitutes the 4th Jhana;

Here, friend Visākha, a monastic, having given up pleasure, given up pain, and with the previous disappearence of mental well-being and sorrow, without pain, without pleasure, and with complete purity of mindfulness owing to equanimity, dwells having attained the fourth absorption. On that basis ignorance is abandoned, and herein there is no more underlying tendency to ignorance.”

So in regards to this;

It seems one engaging in the fourth jhana is like an arahant, but not in lesser jhanas. Thanks!

An Arahant is not always in the 4th Jhana as i interperet it but i may be wrong. An Arahant is consumate in virtue, in concentration and discernment therefore no delusion as i understand it.

[Zom]

so i assume that arahant is free from Delusion (mohakkhayo) but not free from Ignorance(avijjādhātu) by which he experiences the pain element and the pleasure element.

Avijja and Moha = synonyms.

Bodily Pain/Pleasure have nothing to do with ignorance.

[User1249x]

so i assume that arahant is free from Delusion (mohakkhayo) but not free from Ignorance(avijjādhātu) by which he experiences the pain element and the pleasure element.

Avijja and Moha = synonyms.

I was talking about Avijjadhatu specifically not Avijja btw.

evidence for this? They are not synonyms in english, not a natural assumption that they should be synonymous in Pali.
If you have some evidence it would be nice. It's just a theory anyway.

What i suggested was that If the there is no Upekkhadhatu then there is Avijjadhatu and Pleasure-element, Pain-Element, Joy-Element, Grief-Element depend on it.

Meaning that Pleasure-element, Pain-element, Joy-element and Grief-Element do no arise without Ignorance-element because without ignorance-element there would be Equanimity-Element and the fourth Jhana basically.

I have no evidence for the Pain-element always arising in dependence on Avija-element.

I am pretty sure that i was wrong actually as i can see a different way it can work;

With Pain-element being with or without ignorance-element. So when not accompanied by Avijja-Dhatu it is merely perceived as is it is, unobstructed by Ignorance-Element. So Vijja is defined by abscence of IAvijja rather than presence of Vijja.

So either abscence of Avijjadhatu does imply presence of Upekkhadhatu or Uperkkhadhatu is Vijja which also makes sense.

[User1249x]

So either abscence of Avijjadhatu does imply presence of Upekkhadhatu or Uperkkhadhatu is Vijja which also makes sense.

Edit: either Vijja implies the presence of Upekkhadhatu or Vijja can be without Upekhadhatu or they are the same thing.

So it seems like pain-element can be with or without ignorance-element. So when not accompanied by Avijja-Dhatu it is merely perceived as is it is, unobstructed by Ignorance-Element. So Vijja is defined by abscence of Avijja rather than presence of.

So now i think that Arahants have Vijja because they do not have Avijjadhatu.

I don't know about the Upekkhadhatu tho.

Is there an Abhidhamma explaination?

[Zom]

I was talking about Avijjadhatu specifically not Avijja btw.

These are the same.

evidence for this? They are not synonyms in english, not a natural assumption that they should be synonymous in Pali.
If you have some evidence it would be nice. It's just a theory anyway.

AN 3.66.

[User1249x]

I was talking about Avijjadhatu specifically not Avijja btw.

These are the same.

evidence for this? They are not synonyms in english, not a natural assumption that they should be synonymous in Pali.
If you have some evidence it would be nice. It's just a theory anyway.

AN 3.66.

thanks

[Assaji]

I've seen statements like "When one is in jhana, all defilements are suppressed temporarily." Is there any scriptural source for this?

No.

This may have evolved from Patisambhidamagga:

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/pahaana.htm

[Saengnapha]

I've seen statements like "When one is in jhana, all defilements are suppressed temporarily." Is there any scriptural source for this?

No.

This may have evolved from Patisambhidamagga:

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/pahaana.htm

But what does your own experience tell you? Are your defilements permanently gone when you are not experiencing jhana? If so, can you stay in jhana indefinitely? Is there any scriptual source that says you must stay in jhana perpetually?

[Kumara]

Could perhaps upakilesa refer to specific states listed in Upakilesa Sutta such as inattention, excess energy etc rather than defilements in a broader sense?

That's an interesting point. Thanks.

Assuming that's correct, then "upakkilesa" in MahaSaccaka Sutta (MN36) actually just refers to blemish/imperfection of mind (cittassa upakkilesa), a term occurring elsewhere in MN meaning such.

[Kumara]

There is this:

“Not for all pleasant feeling, friend Visākha, (is there) a tendency to passion that should be abandoned, not for all unpleasant feeling (is there) a tendency to repulsion that should be abandoned, not for all neither-unpleasant-nor-pleasant feeling (is there) a tendency to ignorance that should be abandoned.
Here, friend Visākha, a monastic, quite secluded from sense desires, secluded from unwholesome things, having thinking, reflection, and the happiness and rapture born of seclusion, dwells having attained the first absorption. On that basis passion is abandoned, and herein there is no more underlying tendency to passion.
Here, friend Visākha, a monastic considers thus: ‘When will I dwell having attained that sphere that the Noble Ones now dwell in having attained that sphere?’ Thus a longing to give attendance towards that unsurpassed freedom arises and with longing as condition sorrow (arises). On that basis repulsion is abandoned, and herein there is no more underlying tendency to repulsion.
Here, friend Visākha, a monastic, having given up pleasure, given up pain, and with the previous disappearence of mental well-being and sorrow, without pain, without pleasure, and with complete purity of mindfulness owing to equanimity, dwells having attained the fourth absorption. On that basis ignorance is abandoned, and herein there is no more underlying tendency to ignorance.”

https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/anandajoti

Would you mind explaining what this is meant to explain?

[Kumara]

I've seen statements like "When one is in jhana, all defilements are suppressed temporarily." Is there any scriptural source for this?

No.

This may have evolved from Patisambhidamagga:

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/pahaana.htm

Thanks. I see "vikkhambhana-pahāna" there for the hindrances. So, you mean it went from "pahāna" to "vikkhambhana-pahāna" to "vikkhambhana". Hmm... these commentaries really have created a lot of problems.

Even then, no scripture, early or exegetical has the idea of "all defilements temporarily suppressed when in jhana".

[Kumara]

So in regards to this;

It seems one engaging in the fourth jhana is like an arahant, but not in lesser jhanas. Thanks!

An Arahant is not always in the 4th Jhana as i interperet it but i may be wrong. An Arahant is consumate in virtue, in concentration and discernment therefore no delusion as i understand it.

(Red highlights above mine.)

I don't see how what I said suggests that an Arahant is always in the 4th Jhana. If he is, then there's no point in saying arahants are "catunnaṃ jhānānaṃ ... nikāmalābhī" (obtainers-at-will of the four jhanas).

Btw, it would be good for us to post answers and disagreements only when we are fairly certain. Otherwise, we're just adding clutter to this forum.