Arguments in favor of being able to hear in the first jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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aflatun
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Re: Arguments in favor of being able to hear in the first jhana

Post by aflatun » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:01 pm

As Robert said, Theravada seems pretty clear about this.

That said I think its worth considering other opinions, particularly from non Theravada sources.

Based on a recent exchange I had with Malcolm it seems the Sautrantikas/Darstantikas (as presented by the pre Yogacarin Ven. Vasubandhu in the Abhidharmakośabhāṣyam) allowed for at least tactile consciousness in the first jhana, because sukha is explicitly a tactile pleasant feeling born of tactile consciousness:
Vasubandhu in Abhidharmakośabhāṣyam wrote:iii. [Objection of the Vaibhasikas:] In order for the happiness of the first two Dhyanas to be agreeable bodily sensation, it is necessary for the person in absorption to produce a consciousness of touch {kayavijnana). And this is not possible. [Answer of the Darstantikas:] In the state of absorption, the body is penetrated by a wind born of excellent mental concentration (samadhi); this wind is a tangible which is agreeably felt (sukhavedaniya) and is called well-being. Hence there is produced a consciousness of touch (together with the agreeable sensation associated with this consciousness).
Abhidharmakośabhāṣyam pg 1233

The opponents Vasubandhu is arguing against in the relevant passages take a position similar to Theravada, which is interesting, to say the least.

Regarding sound specifically, I'm not sure what his take is. But further down when discussing dhyana existences (not states in this life, but post mortem destinations) he says:
Vasubandhu in Abhidharmakośabhāṣyam wrote: a. In the First Dhyana existence, there are three sensations: 1) the sensation of happiness (sukhavedana) associated with three consciousnesses (eye, ear, and body consciousness); 2) the sensation of satisfaction of the sphere of the mind consciousness (manovijnana); and 3) the sensation of equanimity associated with four consciousnesses (eye, ear, body, and manas).
Abhidharmakośabhāṣyam pg 1240

It would be interesting to see what Shramana Zhiyi has to say about this, since he was writing about jhana (dhyana) but I haven't read the book(s) yet.

Of course there is The Great Jhana Debate where you will find Geoff/Nyana arguing something that I think is similar to Ven. Vasubandhu's position
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

zan
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Re: Arguments in favor of being able to hear in the first jhana

Post by zan » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:16 pm

Dmytro wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:05 pm
Hi Zan,
zan wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:43 pm
I was hoping that you all may be able to present all of the arguments and textual evidence that support the idea that one can hear sounds in the first jhana.
Here's an excellent explanation by Geoff Shatz:

http://web.archive.org/web/201603060020 ... jhana.html
http://web.archive.org/web/201603051817 ... hanas.html

Article by Ven. Thanissaro:

Silence Isn’t Mandatory
SENSORY PERCEPTION IN THE JHĀNAS

http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writ ... datory.pdf
Wow thanks!
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

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Pondera
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Re: Arguments in favor of being able to hear in the first jhana

Post by Pondera » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:09 am

It’s pretty clear. There’s one attainment where one does not hear (see, smell, feel, etc.). - ie. “the cessation of perception and feeling”.

Even in “neither perception nor non perception” there is sound - ie. neither sound nor not-sound - neither sight nor not-sight”. Etc.

Clearly, eliminating perception (and feeling) is the escape in Buddhism. If that escape was realized in all the lower jhanas, then why even have the final release?!!!

auto
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Re: Arguments in favor of being able to hear in the first jhana

Post by auto » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:04 pm

Pondera wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:09 am
It’s pretty clear. There’s one attainment where one does not hear (see, smell, feel, etc.). - ie. “the cessation of perception and feeling”.

Even in “neither perception nor non perception” there is sound - ie. neither sound nor not-sound - neither sight nor not-sight”. Etc.

Clearly, eliminating perception (and feeling) is the escape in Buddhism. If that escape was realized in all the lower jhanas, then why even have the final release?!!!
Cessation of perception and feeling. So you still will have 1st, 4th and 5th skandhas. Otherwords rupa, cetasikas, cittas.
abhidhamma

“Citta” is defined as ‘consciousness of the senses’ or ‘awareness
of an object’.
Cittas may be divided into four classes in accordance with
the four planes (bhåmi) or spheres (avacara):
1 Kàmàvacara cittas
consciousness mostly experienced in the sense sphere
(kàma-loka)
2 Råpàvacara cittas
consciousness mostly experienced in the fine-material
sphere (råpa-loka)
3 Aråpàvacara cittas
Consciousness mostly experienced in the immaterial
sphere (aråpa-loka)
4 Lokuttara cittas
consciousness experienced in the supramundane (transcendental)
level
-----
Råpa is incessantly produced from four main
sources namely, kamma, citta, utu (heat) and àhàra (nutriment).
And råpa is very short lived – it endures only for 17 conscious
moments. What is formed is almost instantly gone.

First råpa is twofold namely,
i Bhåta-råpa – essentials, and
ii Upàdàya-råpa – derivatives.

The bhåta-råpa is more prominent than the upàdàya-råpa.
Great masses like the earth and the sun are formed when a lot
of bhåta-råpa has accumulated. Consequently bhåta-råpa is also
called mahàbhåta (great essentials).

1 Pathavã
The element of extension with the characteristics of
hardness and softness..
2 âpo
The element of cohesion with the characteristics of
cohesiveness and fluidity..
3 Tejo
The element of heat or heat energy with the characteristics
of hotness and coldness..
4 Vàyo
The element of motion or kinetic energy with the characteristics
of pushing and supporting..
-----
Cetasikas are mental factors or mental concomitants that arise
and perish together with citta, depend on citta for their arising
and influence the mind to be bad, good or neutral as they arise.
A cetasika has the following four characteristic properties:
i It arises together with citta (consciousness).
ii It perishes together with citta.
iii It takes the same object (arammana) which citta takes.
iv It shares a common physical base (vatthu) with citta.

auto
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Re: Arguments in favor of being able to hear in the first jhana

Post by auto » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:10 pm

abhidhamma (argument against the op)
‘Samàpatti’ means ‘attainment’. A person, who has attained the
råpàvacara jhàna, may enter the meditative absorption corresponding
to that jhàna whenever he wishes. If he practices well,
he may attain the ecstatic trance instantly and remain in the
trance for one hour, two hours, three hours, etc., up to seven
days. During this trance, the jhàna citta occurs repeatedly and
spontaneously focusing the attention on the pañibhàga-nimitta
of kasiõa. So he will not hear any sound nor know any other
sense-object during the trance.
1 For attainment of råpàvacara jhàna:
The pañibhàga-nimitta of kasiõa appears at the mind-door
causing the life-continuum to vibrate twice and become
arrested (Na-Da). Then mano-dvàràvajjana observes the
pañibhàga-nimitta and decides whether it is good or bad.
Then one of the two somanassa-sahagataü ¤ànasampayuttaõ
mahàkusala cittas (take upekkhà-sahagataü to
enter the fifth jhàna) functions as parikamma (omit for
tikkha-pa¤¤à person), upacàra, anuloma and gotrabhu.
Then råpàvacara kusala first jhàna (or second, third,
fourth or fifth jhàna) citta functions many times as
appanà-javana. When the ecstatic absorption is over,
bhavaïga cittas sink into life-continuum.
Na:bhavaïga-calàna – vibrating life-continuum
At the arising instant of this citta, råpà-rammaõa
appears (becomes distinct) at cakkhu-pasàda (eye-door)
Note that atimahantàrammaõa takes one cittakkhaõa for
its full development after uppàda.
Na: santiraõa – investigating consciousness
It investigates the object and the impression.
Da:bhavaïgupaccheda – arresting life-continuum
Bhavaïga-stream is cut off after the dissolution of this
citta.
Da: tadàlambaõa – registering consciousness
It immediately follows javana and runs for two
conscious moments enjoying the taste of the senseobject.
At the dissolving instant of the second
tadàlambaõa citta, the visible object and the cakkhupasàda
dissolve together because their life-time of 17
conscious moments is now complete.
Last edited by auto on Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

auto
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Re: Arguments in favor of being able to hear in the first jhana

Post by auto » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:50 pm

but the thing is that you may hear the sounds you already know before entering jhana. Jhana arrests lifecontinuum.

?

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