Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1779
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:21 pm

in regards to setting time for absorbtion it seems to be same mechanic as resolving on time for waking up. In a simple example if your original intention was to just sit for 30 minutes and do ur standard meditation and you enter absorbtion first time say 10 minutes in, jhana(absorbtion) will break in exactly 20 minutes as the session was to last 30 minutes, that was your intention and what was resolved upon. Hence process of mastering that is probably similar to mastering resolving on time or resolving in general.

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2130
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Zom » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:53 am

You are correct that Goenka is far from original Buddhism,
He does not teach Buddhism at all and does not refer to his teachings as Buddhism.
He teaches the dhamma or the teaching or practice that the Buddha taught. This is at least what he teaches on course, that the technique or practice of the Buddha was lost throughout the world except it was preserved in Burma in its pristine purity.
Typical guru-sectarian approach: no one knows what Buddha taught, only Goenka knows (from some secret hidden sources) 8-)
Now I’m not sure if he is stating that his technique is the only one that will work or what I like to think is that there are a few different techniques while starting off but eventually they all get you to the same place if done correctly. It does however seem that you feel whatever practice you are doing is the only one that will work and you seem to have this practice and it’s fruits placed very high and out of reach other than for very gifted monastics leading the holy life for a long long time. But you have shown no evidence supporting this opinion.
I say just what Buddha said - and this is not my personal opinion, but it is there in the authentic ancient buddhist texts. The problem is, people don't want to read them, study them carefully, but prefer to read small booklets about fast & easy short-cut methods to get Enlightenment in 5 minutes. Buddha knew that would happen, though:

They will not listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, profound, transcendent, connected with the Void — are being recited. They will not lend ear, will not set their hearts on knowing them, will not regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works: the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping and mastering. Thus from corrupt Dhamma comes corrupt discipline; from corrupt discipline, corrupt Dhamma.

Why do you feel that if a person experiences jhana that they must have mastered the jhana and the ability to set the time one spends in jhana. It seems that these extraordinary levels of concentration can give rise to buried defilements and when they arise they may overpower and cause concentration to be affected. Why do you feel there must be this element of control without mastery and high levels of attainments.
I told already why.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2690
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:06 pm

Zom wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:54 pm
Anyway, Buddha said that pleasure of jhana should not be feared because it has nothing to do with unwholesome.
Did the Buddha really say this or was it the (unenlightened) Buddha-To-Be that said this? What about this, below?
There is the case where an individual, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there — fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away from that — then when he dies he reappears in conjunction with the devas of Brahma's retinue. The devas of Brahma's retinue, monks, have a life-span of an eon. A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal womb, to the state of the hungry shades.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2130
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Zom » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:13 pm

Yes, if you just reach jhana and do nothing, you'll reborn in corresponding rupa-realm. But for a buddhist jhana is a must-have tool for insight.


“There is a path, Ānanda, a way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters; that anyone, without relying on that path, on that way, shall know or see or abandon the five lower fetters — this is not possible. “And what, Ānanda, is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters? Here... bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna... fourth jhana... Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’ If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints because of that desire for the Dhamma, that delight in the Dhamma, then with the destruction of the five lower fetters he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously in the Pure Abodes and there attain final Nibbāna without ever returning from that world. This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters.
Last edited by Zom on Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2690
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:17 pm

:meditate:
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1779
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:19 pm

"Natthi jhanam apannassa

panna natthi ajhayato

yamhi jhananca panna ca

sa ve nibbanasantike."

loosely
"There’s no jhāna for one without wisdom/insight;
No wisdom for one without jhāna.
But for one with both jhāna and wisdom/insight,
Nibbana truly is near.

That what you mean by Insight Zom?

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2130
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Zom » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:23 pm

The attainment in SN 13.1 sounds great & a product of insight but probably unrelated to jhana. I recall you posted non-returners & arahants require jhana.
Yes, as you see from MN 64 I just cited above - jhana is necessary for dropping 5 (or more) fetters. However, to drop first 3 fetters (stream-entry) you don't need jhana. This is said in Autumn sutta AN 3.94.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2690
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:26 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:23 pm
Yes, as you see from MN 64 I just cited above - jhana is necessary for dropping 5 (or more) fetters. However, to drop first 3 fetters (stream-entry) you don't need jhana. This is said in Autumn sutta AN 3.94.
Excellent. Thank you for sharing AN 3.94. :bow:

thepea
Posts: 870
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by thepea » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:37 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:53 am

Typical guru-sectarian approach: no one knows what Buddha taught, only Goenka knows (from some secret hidden sources) 8-)

I say just what Buddha said - and this is not my personal opinion, but it is there in the authentic ancient buddhist texts. The problem is, people don't want to read them, study them carefully, but prefer to read small booklets about fast & easy short-cut methods to get Enlightenment in 5 minutes. Buddha knew that would happen, though:
Well I wouldn’t say it is a secret, and as he, and I imagine any qualified teacher does is point the student inward as to awaken the teacher within. As you progress within this tradition you are eligible to sit longer courses and sati course etc.. within these courses students are exposed to the teachings spoken in original language of Buddha. It is mentioned that it is good to experience the teachings this way.
It doesn’t change the basic practice one learns in the introductory course this remains and is the practice, one just works in different ways as they progress along the path as the nature of experience changes.
Jhanas are simply part of this changing experience.

You seem to preach the necessity of control or mastery of jhanas if they are genuine and not just some other experience.
So does a jhana just arise and from this point you are master of this jhana or does it not make more sense that one approaches jhana enters jhana for a few seconds exits, works again, approaches jhana, enters jhana spends a bit more time in this state and so on entering deeper and deeper. Would it not also make sense that a skilled teacher of meditation of which Goenka was one, would know the signposts and be able to skillfully guide students and help them to recognize these?
Or is it your opinion that no teachers exist but one must wade through the countless pages of sutta translations on their own, and in this way, and only this way they will find and grasp the path laid out by Buddha?

thepea
Posts: 870
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by thepea » Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:04 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:13 pm
He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’
This is vipassana as I have been taught only the translation of “turning his mind away from states and directs it towards the deathless element “ is observing the arising and passing away of Vedana. To see the process at the subatomic level observing finer and finer realities coming into existance and passing away one is indirectly observing nibanna. When trancendence occurs all falls away and nibanna.

You don’t have to do this for 12 continuous hours in the seated position to know you are in first jhana you can be experiencing this moving around, eating, pooping, it is not easy but possible.

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2130
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Zom » Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:53 pm

Would it not also make sense that a skilled teacher of meditation of which Goenka was one, would know the signposts and be able to skillfully guide students and help them to recognize these?
Or is it your opinion that no teachers exist but one must wade through the countless pages of sutta translations on their own, and in this way, and only this way they will find and grasp the path laid out by Buddha?
Have you seen Goenka himself sit in one place for some 10+ hours? End of story.
This is vipassana as I have been taught only the translation of “turning his mind away from states and directs it towards the deathless element “ is observing the arising and passing away of Vedana. To see the process at the subatomic level observing finer and finer realities coming into existance and passing away one is indirectly observing nibanna. When trancendence occurs all falls away and nibanna.

You don’t have to do this for 12 continuous hours in the seated position to know you are in first jhana you can be experiencing this moving around, eating, pooping, it is not easy but possible.
First of all you must be in real jhana to do that. Otherwise it is just wishful thinking. People think they are "subatomic level observers" but this is very far from real situation. I already said, many people, who crave so much for "spiritual results" tend to interpret trifling things and phenomenas as something unique, great, deep insights, "subatomic observations", "jhanas", "emptiness", "kundalini awakening" etc etc etc - anything their spiritual fantasies can offer )) This is natural for all "retreat-goers". They spend so much time and effort in it that they simply deny this brings them nothing and leads them nowhere.

If you really got "meditative results" - show something worthy. At least, I said, prolonged sittings. Better - some physic powers, since they are closely connected with jhanic level of mind -) But as we see, no one can do that. Too much fervent talking and no real results.

thepea
Posts: 870
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by thepea » Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:08 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:53 pm

Have you seen Goenka himself sit in one place for some 10+ hours? End of story.

If you really got "meditative results" - show something worthy. At least, I said, prolonged sittings. Better - some physic powers, since they are closely connected with jhanic level of mind -) But as we see, no one can do that. Too much fervent talking and no real results.
I have not met mr Goenka but I have worked and meditated beside many of his acharia and assistant teachers. I have given service as a manager on courses and watched and listened to students approaching with greats burning questions and some angry and wanting to leave and I’ve witnessed great compassion flowing from these people and this is the quality which draws me towards this practice as I can see compassion arising with me in my day to day activities and I am generally a much happier person than I was before. If this result is not worthy of the wise then what are we doing sitting for hours and hours. If the goal of progress is to float or pass through walls then I have not progressed one step, I have become better at reading the Minds of people in my company and showing more compassion to those in need.
Does this count towards my jhana merit points? Is this proof that I have experienced real jhana? I have never sat still for more than three hours at a time but I have had entire days where I could move around And follow the schedule and awareness was at the tip of nose and breath was very refined and crystal clear every breath was experienced in very subtle detail. I have no mastery of this and this does not occur on every retreat in fact it rarely is clear like this but there is always subatomic particles arising and passing that I can feel. It’s just that the very refined sensation like ones in spinal chord are not always accessible mostly on retreats do I have opportunity to go this deep.
This to me is mudane jhana and when meditator is ready supramundane jhanas arise, in these there is a melting of minds and experiences are more vivid perhaps in these the super powers are available. My experience with these jhanas is limited so I cannot say for certain.

Again, the compassion and generally happy disposition is all that is important to me.

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2130
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Zom » Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:19 pm

I have not met mr Goenka but I have worked and meditated beside many of his acharia and assistant teachers. I have given service as a manager on courses and watched and listened to students approaching with greats burning questions and some angry and wanting to leave and I’ve witnessed great compassion flowing from these people and this is the quality which draws me towards this practice as I can see compassion arising with me in my day to day activities and I am generally a much happier person than I was before. If this result is not worthy of the wise then what are we doing sitting for hours and hours.
Any religious sect have this thing. Visit Krishna cult followers - you will get x10 more "unconditioned love", etc ))
Does this count towards my jhana merit points? Is this proof that I have experienced real jhana?
10+ hours and here you go 8-) Better 7 days, of course, but even 10-12 hours will be convincing enough. Not a 100% proof still, but okay .) (be careful though, I recall Jack Kornfield wrote about one case where someone decided to sit a whole night through the pain and was taken to mental hospital thereafter)

James Tan
Posts: 823
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by James Tan » Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:51 pm

Greetings ,

There is a monk that I know that could sit for a stretch of 3 hours per session . He is capable of conducting a continuous meditation retreat up to 100 days nonstop without difficulty . He is also well versed in the nikaya . His name is bhikkhu vupasama .
There is another person but not a buddhist .
He could sits for 4 to 5 hours without any problems . In case if you are interested he is called sadhguru .
There were many Taoist that could sit for many hours and many days .
There were many Indian yogis that sits for many hours and days .
There is one Vajrayana tulku boy I know which is merely 4 years old could sits for 5 , 6 hours during the day of the enthronement ceremony .
Lastly , there is a piece of stone could sits for a million years .

Caodemarte
Posts: 831
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Caodemarte » Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:34 pm

An American Zen Buddhist monk told me he accompanied his old Japanese monk teacher to the US. There was room on the flight so the old man immediately went into lotus and stayed the way, greatly impressing the American. After arriving 12 hours later, the old man looked at his companion, and said that he was amazed at his flexibility and endurance. Americans were able to sit upright in an uncomfortable Western chair for the entire flight! He could hardly imagine the great ability to do that.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests