Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
thepea
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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by thepea » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Zom wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:42 am

This is why the meaning is: "For seven days I sat in one spot, absorbed in rapture & bliss [of the 1st or 2nd jhanas]".
So what can we conclude about this individual?

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Zom » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:36 pm

Concerning the topic - is that once you are really in 1st/2nd jhana, you can actually sit in one place for 7 days without interruption because of the absense of pain and lightness of physical body.

And if you are not in jhana, and try to sit that long, you'll get this --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_ulcer

Also worth reading .) --> http://www.roane-law.com/blog/2013/octo ... -prevent-/

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cappuccino
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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:52 pm

Ordinary people also sit long on trains, boats, airplanes, etc.
Last edited by cappuccino on Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by thepea » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:53 pm

Zom wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:36 pm
Concerning the topic - is that once you are really in 1st/2nd jhana, you can actually sit in one place for 7 days without interruption because of the absense of pain and lightness of physical body.

And if you are not in jhana, and try to sit that long, you'll get this --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_ulcer

Also worth reading .) --> http://www.roane-law.com/blog/2013/octo ... -prevent-/
Ok, that’s the direction I thought you have been leaning towards.
Now the trouble that I have with this is that it seems that in order to sit in continuous jhana for seven days one would either have purified the mind to a level where they have complete mastery of this jhana(a very high level of purity) or someone is in a trancelike state and may not have awareness placed on bodily sense doors.

I hold the opinion that on say a meditation retreat one can slip into jhanas for much shorter period of time. Their concentration can build up over continuous work over a few days and they can experience jhanas for a few seconds or minutes or an hour or so.

Do you not feel that what I mention is reasonable and if not, why?

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by auto » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:54 pm

DNS wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:25 am
auto wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:16 am
ok, no excuses what ever could be this, but you defenetly doesn't need to sit 7 days if you can do it with lesser. So i don't get it why to cherish persons who sit so long?
Yes, I agree it could probably be done in less time for jhanas. In that passage she was describing her jhanas and then enlightenment attainment, so definitely she is worthy of praise.
the 7 days could be a dhammic meaning. It coems a legend and at some point pupils try to replicate it literally.

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Zom » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:27 pm

I hold the opinion that on say a meditation retreat one can slip into jhanas for much shorter period of time. Their concentration can build up over continuous work over a few days and they can experience jhanas for a few seconds or minutes or an hour or so.

Do you not feel that what I mention is reasonable and if not, why?
I don't think this is reasonable simply because jhana is not a state born of "mechanical actions" (yes I know, modern trend is to think this way, but suttas do not support such kind of view). To get jhana, according to suttas, you must lead holy life for a long long time - and then you'll be able to get into it naturally. Jhana is called "a Fruit of recluse life" in DN2 for example. That is, if you live like a recluse, then, if this your life of recluseship is successful, you may get access to jhana, as an outcome of such life. And those different and numerous "special effects" people get on retreats are just "bugs" of overladen nervous system, which they tend (of course) to interpret as "jhanas", "samadhi", "insights", whatever... 8-) (I myself got these hundreds of times, yes .)

If your jhana is genuine - then there must be no problem for you to master it, because, well, your spiritual level is so high then ,) However, if you can't do that - sorry, that was not a jhana.

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:35 pm

It should be said, Jhana is not necessary.

I fear some think too highly of attainment, as if they cannot achieve so high.

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Zom » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:30 pm

It should be said, Jhana is not necessary.
Not necessary for what? It is necessary for attainment of non-returning and arahantship - this is said plainly in MN 64.

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:27 pm

Zom wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:42 am
Whoever said this was already beyond jhanas and coming out of nirodha samapatti, which is not a jhana and doesn't happen within jhanas. It is a letting go of all states.
Again you've got it wrong, because "piti" and "sukha" mentioned (in which "meditator" is "absorbed") - are jhanic factors which are present in the 1st and 2nd jhanas. And they end in the 3rd (piti) 4th (sukha) jhanas by the way.

This is why the meaning is: "For seven days I sat in one spot, absorbed in rapture & bliss [of the 1st or 2nd jhanas]".
Yes, I did get that wrong. In this case, I haven't a clue what this person is doing for so long in the first two jhanas? Indulging him/herself in feeling rapture? It is an impermanent state. Why linger if there is no attachment? To me, the Buddha's teachings have nothing to do with developing powers. They are possibilities but are not promoted as the point of Dhamma. Yogis have been doing these tricks for centuries. I guess you want to be a yogi. OK with me.

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Zom » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:03 pm

Yogis have been doing these tricks for centuries
Those yogis who genuinely did these, as you call it, "tricks" were held in high esteem by the Buddha. For example, his teachers Alara Kalama and Udakka Ramaputta.
I haven't a clue what this person is doing for so long in the first two jhanas? Indulging him/herself in feeling rapture? It is an impermanent state. Why linger if there is no attachment?
Probably, because of the development of the states. The longer you are in them, the better you master them. Buddha himself said that "jhanas should not be feared".

“I considered: ‘I recall that when my father the Sakyan was occupied, while I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. Could that be the path to enlightenment?’ Then, following on that memory, came the realisation: ‘That is indeed the path to enlightenment.’ “I thought: ‘Why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensual pleasures and unwholesome states?’ I thought: ‘I am not afraid of that pleasure since it has nothing to do with sensual pleasures and unwholesome states.’

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn36

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by 2600htz » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:17 pm

Hello:

When the suttas talk about long sittings of 7 days they usually are talking about sitting in the cessation of feeling and perception.

Regards.

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Zom » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:35 pm

When the suttas talk about long sittings of 7 days they usually are talking about sitting in the cessation of feeling and perception.
Doesn't really matter - still jhanic attainment. The prolonged sitting is possible because of the absense of physical pain and this happens even in the 1st jhana, so in all jhanas you can sit as long as you like if you master them.

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by 2600htz » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:30 pm

Zom wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:35 pm
When the suttas talk about long sittings of 7 days they usually are talking about sitting in the cessation of feeling and perception.
Doesn't really matter - still jhanic attainment. The prolonged sitting is possible because of the absense of physical pain and this happens even in the 1st jhana, so in all jhanas you can sit as long as you like if you master them.
Hello:

I disagree. Even the Buddha in his last days had to give special care to physical pain, he had to rest between talks, sit on a different position, have Ananda giving some massages, etc. And he obviously could enter the first jhana at any time. In the first jhana there is still contact and feeling.

DN-16
It is, Ananda, only when the Tathagata, disregarding external objects, with the cessation of certain feelings, attains to and abides in the signless concentration of mind, that his body is more comfortable.
He had to go into the signless concentration (cessation of feeling and perception) to experience full relief of his back pain.

Regards.

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Zom » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:35 pm

I disagree. Even the Buddha in his last days had to give special care to physical pain, he had to rest between talks, sit on a different position, have Ananda giving some massages, etc. And he obviously could enter the first jhana at any time. In the first jhana there is still contact and feeling.
First, signless concentration is not a cessation of perception and feeling. Second, Buddha can't contradict himself (see SN 48.40).

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by thepea » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:43 pm

Zom wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:27 pm

I don't think this is reasonable simply because jhana is not a state born of "mechanical actions" (yes I know, modern trend is to think this way, but suttas do not support such kind of view). To get jhana, according to suttas, you must lead holy life for a long long time - and then you'll be able to get into it naturally. Jhana is called "a Fruit of recluse life" in DN2 for example. That is, if you live like a recluse, then, if this your life of recluseship is successful, you may get access to jhana, as an outcome of such life. And those different and numerous "special effects" people get on retreats are just "bugs" of overladen nervous system, which they tend (of course) to interpret as "jhanas", "samadhi", "insights", whatever... 8-) (I myself got these hundreds of times, yes .)

If your jhana is genuine - then there must be no problem for you to master it, because, well, your spiritual level is so high then ,) However, if you can't do that - sorry, that was not a jhana.
Your opinion seems to contradict what I’ve been taught in Goenka vipassana retreats.
Mr Goenka on long courses is describing jhanas and guiding students what to focus on what to ignore and giving details and signposts one will be feeling/experiencing as one approaches this levels of concentration.
On retreat students are living the holy life and on long retreats students must have kept up practice for minimum of two years. But I have met and heard of many students reaching these levels on their first retreats and after only a few days of practice. Not many mind you, but some do.

Your statements according to canon as you interpret them seem to go directly against what mr Goenka teaches.
Do you feel that he is mistaken and teaching something other than Buddha was teaching. I’ve also read mahasi sayadaw teachings and his description of passing through insight knowledges and they seem identical to mr Goenkas teachings and they fit very well with my experiential understanding.
What you seem to be saying is both of these teachers are wrong?
Is this so?

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by thepea » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:00 pm

Zom wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:03 pm
I haven't a clue what this person is doing for so long in the first two jhanas? Indulging him/herself in feeling rapture? It is an impermanent state. Why linger if there is no attachment?

“Probably, because of the development of the states. The longer you are in them, the better you master them. Buddha himself said that "jhanas should not be feared".
I don’t think so,
It would seem that one would be working with breaking the attachment to these jhanas sitting and observing the rapture and bliss as suffering very refined pleasant states but impermanent in nature and therefore ultimately unsatisfactory.

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Idappaccayata » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:05 pm

Zom, you make a convincing case, but I'm yet to see a sutta reference that says in order to have experienced jhana at all one must have the ability to sit for extended periods of time.

This also seems to contradict almost every great teacher since the time of the Buddha, which makes me apprehensive to agree.
The furniture may be exquisite,
And the bars of solid gold,
But once the bird realizes that the cage is a cage,
It finds within that cage
No joy

- Ajahn Jayasaro

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Zom » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:54 pm

Your statements according to canon as you interpret them seem to go directly against what mr Goenka teaches.
Do you feel that he is mistaken and teaching something other than Buddha was teaching. I’ve also read mahasi sayadaw teachings and his description of passing through insight knowledges and they seem identical to mr Goenkas teachings and they fit very well with my experiential understanding.
What you seem to be saying is both of these teachers are wrong?
Is this so?
Goenka is very far from original buddhism, yes. Mahasi Sayadaw is closer, but still, his teaching is based entirely on later canonical literature which itself has a number of mistakes. Buddha himself said that any kind of tradition is not reliable (MN 95) and thus one must compare everything with original suttas and original vinaya (DN 16 or АN 4.180).
I don’t think so,
It would seem that one would be working with breaking the attachment to these jhanas sitting and observing the rapture and bliss as suffering very refined pleasant states but impermanent in nature and therefore ultimately unsatisfactory.
Maybe yes, maybe no. Anyway, Buddha said that pleasure of jhana should not be feared because it has nothing to do with unwholesome.
Zom, you make a convincing case, but I'm yet to see a sutta reference that says in order to have experienced jhana at all one must have the ability to sit for extended periods of time.
I didn't say that. I said that if one has mastered jhana, then he must have an ability to set its length - be it 1 second or 100 hours. Of course, if you are just approaching jhana, never experienced it, you are unskilful in setting its length, this is totally new ground for you, and thus it can last for some random period of time. But I strongly doubt you need many years of practice to set the desired time. Again, if we take that Therigatha account, a bhikkhuni there was unable to enter jhana at all. But then, when the right time came, she managed to do it and sat in it for 7 days (and became an arahant on the 8th day). We also know canonical account about certain "problems with jhanas" of Ven. Moggallana. However, he was able to get through that pretty fast, and became an arahant in two weeks of his "problematic" jhana practice.

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by thepea » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Zom wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:54 pm

Goenka is very far from original buddhism, yes. Mahasi Sayadaw is closer, but still, his teaching is based entirely on later canonical literature which itself has a number of mistakes. Buddha himself said that any kind of tradition is not reliable (MN 95) and thus one must compare everything with original suttas and original vinaya (DN 16 or АN 4.180).


Maybe yes, maybe no. Anyway, Buddha said that pleasure of jhana should not be feared because it has nothing to do with unwholesome.
You are correct that Goenka is far from original Buddhism,
He does not teach Buddhism at all and does not refer to his teachings as Buddhism.
He teaches the dhamma or the teaching or practice that the Buddha taught. This is at least what he teaches on course, that the technique or practice of the Buddha was lost throughout the world except it was preserved in Burma in its pristine purity.
Now I’m not sure if he is stating that his technique is the only one that will work or what I like to think is that there are a few different techniques while starting off but eventually they all get you to the same place if done correctly.
It does however seem that you feel whatever practice you are doing is the only one that will work and you seem to have this practice and it’s fruits placed very high and out of reach other than for very gifted monastics leading the holy life for a long long time.
But you have shown no evidence supporting this opinion.

And establishing single pointed concentration is not to be feared, but the pleasant sensation experienced in jhanas are to be seen as suffering and not to be clung to.
In these refined states meditators are working with craving and they present an excellent opportunity to reduce your cravings.

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by thepea » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:17 pm

Zom wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:54 pm

I didn't say that. I said that if one has mastered jhana, then he must have an ability to set its length - be it 1 second or 100 hours. Of course, if you are just approaching jhana, never experienced it, you are unskilful in setting its length, this is totally new ground for you, and thus it can last for some random period of time. But I strongly doubt you need many years of practice to set the desired time.
Why do you feel that if a person experiences jhana that they must have mastered the jhana and the ability to set the time one spends in jhana. It seems that these extraordinary levels of concentration can give rise to buried defilements and when they arise they may overpower and cause concentration to be affected. Why do you feel there must be this element of control without mastery and high levels of attainments.

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