Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
justindesilva
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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by justindesilva » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:52 am

thepea wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:11 am
one_awakening wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:39 am

I think it's more important to meditate every day, so you can develop you concentration which allows you to enter the Jhanas.
Why is it important to enter jhanas?
jhanas are stages of bringing the mind in to one pointedness. It needs training. As an example it is like training to swim ir to ride a byke. How long one takes depends on one' s interest and application.

thepea
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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by thepea » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:22 am

justindesilva wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:52 am

jhanas are stages of bringing the mind in to one pointedness. It needs training. As an example it is like training to swim ir to ride a byke. How long one takes depends on one' s interest and application.
Yes but why is this important?

Saengnapha
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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:29 am

thepea wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:22 am
justindesilva wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:52 am

jhanas are stages of bringing the mind in to one pointedness. It needs training. As an example it is like training to swim ir to ride a byke. How long one takes depends on one' s interest and application.
Yes but why is this important?
It is only a belief. Someone told you that this is important. There are no jhanas outside of your thought process. It is a contrived, fabricated mental activity that has no essential reality and is perpetuated through the belief that they will help you realize/understand why you feel as shitty as you do. These beliefs that these things are important and will change you is a fallacy. It is your creation because you create a someone who is in trouble, who should be experiencing something other than what your current experience is. You create a problem and you create a solution to this non-existing 'thing'. Freeing yourself is another myth. How can you free something that doesn't even exist? All this thinking is tied together like a bundle. It is created by history, culture, the past. There is nothing separate in yourself from this that 'observes'. Even the observation is part of this bundle. It is an extraordinary illusion.

thepea
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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by thepea » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:18 pm

One awakening wrote that it was important I thought I was discussing with him, you answered instead.
I agree it is important to face what one experiences in meditation and life at this moment and not strive to achieve anything.
I feel deeper states of concentration will develop as one purifies the mind trying to achieve theses states and not observe this reality as it is seems to miss the teachings.

justindesilva
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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by justindesilva » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:44 pm

thepea wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:18 pm
One awakening wrote that it was important I thought I was discussing with him, you answered instead.
I agree it is important to face what one experiences in meditation and life at this moment and not strive to achieve anything.
I feel deeper states of concentration will develop as one purifies the mind trying to achieve theses states and not observe this reality as it is seems to miss the teachings.
Hi thepea, extremely sorry if I jumped in.?

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by thepea » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:52 pm

My bad for not reading post more carefully

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Zom
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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Zom » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:06 pm

Yes but why is this important?
Because only in this mind state you can get supernormal abilities, one of which is full "destruction of defilements" (6th supernormal power of out 6). There is one sutta worth remembering: Majjhima Nikaya 64 (sixty four). Remember that number and read it from time to time - very useful .)
I know that Zom is a very experienced and knowledgeable person but I am not sure whether above statement is correct.
It is correct. As NDS already showed, texts speak about even 168 hours of uninterrupted seating in 1st/2nd jhanas (and there are several such mentionings throughout the Canon). However, as some other texts (SN) hint - if you indeed have mastered jhana, you can decide yourself how much time you want to spend in it. It can be (maybe) one second, or it can be 7 days. However, what I'm trying to show by this statement - if someone says that he has jhana, then he must be able to demonstrate such prolonged sittings as an objective criterion. If he can't do this - he can't prove to anyone that he really enters jhana. Probably he just overestimates himself (more likely) or lies.

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cappuccino
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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:36 pm

Jhana just means calm.

Calm is easy. Anyone can be calm.
Don't wait, the time will never be just right

auto
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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by auto » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:58 pm

Zom wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:06 pm
Yes but why is this important?
Because only in this mind state you can get supernormal abilities, one of which is full "destruction of defilements" (6th supernormal power of out 6). There is one sutta worth remembering: Majjhima Nikaya 64 (sixty four). Remember that number and read it from time to time - very useful .)
I know that Zom is a very experienced and knowledgeable person but I am not sure whether above statement is correct.
It is correct. As NDS already showed, texts speak about even 168 hours of uninterrupted seating in 1st/2nd jhanas (and there are several such mentionings throughout the Canon). However, as some other texts (SN) hint - if you indeed have mastered jhana, you can decide yourself how much time you want to spend in it. It can be (maybe) one second, or it can be 7 days. However, what I'm trying to show by this statement - if someone says that he has jhana, then he must be able to demonstrate such prolonged sittings as an objective criterion. If he can't do this - he can't prove to anyone that he really enters jhana. Probably he just overestimates himself (more likely) or lies.
So in your opinion who realizes impermanece should also be able to destroy rocks with a finger touch.
---
Rocks are rock for a reason, they are strong and even if you know that things break, you can't break it if you don't apply relevant force, there is probably a condition called out and then that will break the rock with ease. Science perhaps know that force already like ice breaking rocks, but not yet you, but you still can know there is something and can cultivate it and one day you get to know it.
--
So might just say weak jhana what is not compatible with the ancient masters jhana, who lived amongst neandertals.

thepea
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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by thepea » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:24 pm

Zom wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:06 pm
Yes but why is this important?
Because only in this mind state you can get supernormal abilities, one of which is full "destruction of defilements" (6th supernormal power of out 6). There is one sutta worth remembering: Majjhima Nikaya 64 (sixty four). Remember that number and read it from time to time - very useful .)
I know that Zom is a very experienced and knowledgeable person but I am not sure whether above statement is correct.
It is correct. As NDS already showed, texts speak about even 168 hours of uninterrupted seating in 1st/2nd jhanas (and there are several such mentionings throughout the Canon). However, as some other texts (SN) hint - if you indeed have mastered jhana, you can decide yourself how much time you want to spend in it. It can be (maybe) one second, or it can be 7 days. However, what I'm trying to show by this statement - if someone says that he has jhana, then he must be able to demonstrate such prolonged sittings as an objective criterion. If he can't do this - he can't prove to anyone that he really enters jhana. Probably he just overestimates himself (more likely) or lies.
I am of the opinion that jhanas arise when mind is pure but they are also impermanent as more stuff bubbles to the surface ones calmness and equiminity may be disrupted. I believe that as one purifies the mind to greater levels Jhanic states will arise more often but I don’t feel it necessary to master any type of jhana in order to purify the mind.
I think that some concentration practices can be counterproductive to liberation.

DCM
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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by DCM » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:35 pm

one_awakening wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:39 am
I don't believe you need to sit for long periods to enter Jhana. I can enter the first Jhana in about one hour, but I've been meditating ever day for eight years.

I think it's more important to meditate every day, so you can develop you concentration which allows you to enter the Jhanas.

It also depends on the person. Some people enter the Jhanas reasonably easily while others never enter the Jhanas.
Out if interest, how many times and for how long do you mediatate each day?

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by Zom » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:56 pm

I believe that as one purifies the mind to greater levels Jhanic states will arise more often but I don’t feel it necessary to master any type of jhana in order to purify the mind.
I think that some concentration practices can be counterproductive to liberation.
This is rather harmful view stated by vipassanists and it leads to degradation and disappearance of true Dhamma (see SN 16.13). Four jhanas are crucial to Buddha's original teaching, they constitute 8th (final) path factor. Without them one goes astray and won't reach full enlightenment.

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by thepea » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:19 pm

Zom wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:56 pm

This is rather harmful view stated by vipassanists and it leads to degradation and disappearance of true Dhamma (see SN 16.13). Four jhanas are crucial to Buddha's original teaching, they constitute 8th (final) path factor. Without them one goes astray and won't reach full enlightenment.
I could say that your view is equally harmful to true dhamma, so let’s not do that and simply share our understandings of dhamma.
Yes the jhanas are required for transcendence but one need not concern themself with jhanas nor do they have to master any jhanas. One needs only simply observe that which presents itself from one moment to the next with a calm and equanimous mind when this occurs one is liberating their past self when a level of purification is reached trancendence will take place and jhanas will arise.

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:37 pm

thepea wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:19 pm
One needs only simply observe that which presents itself from one moment to the next with a calm and equanimous mind
Yes, that is jhana.

A belief of difficulty is the obstacle.
Don't wait, the time will never be just right

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Re: Should you sit 12 hours to know that your are in first Jhana?

Post by one_awakening » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:45 am

DCM wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:35 pm
one_awakening wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:39 am
I don't believe you need to sit for long periods to enter Jhana. I can enter the first Jhana in about one hour, but I've been meditating ever day for eight years.

I think it's more important to meditate every day, so you can develop you concentration which allows you to enter the Jhanas.

It also depends on the person. Some people enter the Jhanas reasonably easily while others never enter the Jhanas.
Out if interest, how many times and for how long do you mediatate each day?

Two one hour sits per day. One of those sits may go for two hours. I also do walking meditation. I do Satipatthana throughout the day as well.

I should add, that I don't get into Jhana with every sit. Just from time to time.
Last edited by one_awakening on Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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