How to reach the 1st Jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
User avatar
Nwad
Posts: 160
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 pm

Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Nwad » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:09 pm

Zom wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:33 am

1) First jhana: "...abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion". Here we see only pleasant factors, rapture and pleasure. This fits well with SN 48.40, because only PAIN ends here, not pleasure.
Hmm... But if we take your logic and suppose that when its said that in 1st jhana there is "rapture" it means that "pain" is end, so why he say that there is "pleasure" while "displeasure" ends only in 3th?...
I dont know, but i feel that your explication is too complicated... Actualy its based on interpretation of sutta, not on sutta it self... I respect your knowledge but i think if pain ends in 1st jhana Buddha would said it clearly without doubts, why he'd like us to search between lines? If there is no pain why he say it only in 4th, while it ends in 1st?...
I dont know i have some doubts about this iterpretation... :( Its feels 'constructed'

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2094
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Zom » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:34 pm

Hmm... But if we take your logic and suppose that when its said that in 1st jhana there is "rapture" it means that "pain" is end, so why he say that there is "pleasure" while "displeasure" ends only in 3th?...
I dont know, but i feel that your explication is too complicated... Actualy its based on interpretation of sutta, not on sutta it self... I respect your knowledge but i think if pain ends in 1st jhana Buddha would said it clearly without doubts, why he'd like us to search between lines? If there is no pain why he say it only in 4th, while it ends in 1st?...
I dont know i have some doubts about this iterpretation... :( Its feels 'constructed'
You have to read carefully everything again. All there in the suttas - this is not "my" explanation - this is what Buddha actually says. You can go directly into Pali if you want. Or into commentaries. Or into Ven. Bodhi notes. It doesn't matter, explanation will be the same.

User avatar
Nwad
Posts: 160
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 pm

Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Nwad » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:59 pm

Hmm...
The problem that i have is that i dont understand - why somethink of "perfect" (in the beggining, middle and end) need to be commented or read between lines? :s

I will put this question aside, perhaps i will find some explenation or comprehention while re-reading Suttanta ;)

Thank you Zom anyway !

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2094
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Zom » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:32 pm

The problem that i have is that i dont understand - why somethink of "perfect" (in the beggining, middle and end) need to be commented or read between lines? :s
There is no "between lines". There is the situation that no teaching is fully and in detail expounded in 1 single sutta. You have to read many and then compile information gathered in order to get proper understanding of the subject.

rightviewftw
Posts: 1599
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:18 pm

it seems like there are several types of jhana.

IE upakilesa sutta describes lights and visions also VSM talks about attaining Signs.
Then there is the 5 factored 1st Jhana..

For vision and signs, probably takes samatha oriented method ie Asubha will work, most likely one will see organs basicly. I know a monk who does breath meditation and sees signs as well, ie a diamond or light, according to him there is not much technique to bring it about, one just focuses on the breath, it is worth noting that he does not train Satipatthana much formally, so his breath meditation as i eventually seemingly understood is more of stilling the mind and staying with the in and out breaths rather than noting Satipatthanas much, he likes the saw similie a lot fwiw and also afaik teaches perception of death using a kasina technique which also produces signs.

The 5 factored Jhana as i understand it, is initially fleeting, pleasurable, unstable but eventually is almost a auto-enter IF appamata and faculties allow for it but one such as this can probably do the other Sign things just as easily as hindrances are easily supressed. I dare not say if one is easier or harder than the other, idk.

If earnestly training, guarding the mind, doing formal meditation at least a couple hours, keeps 10 precepts and secluded from unwholesome states, id expect one will start entering the 1st Five Factored Jhana in about a week but its based solely on my own subjective experiences i assume it is different for people a lot. On flipside imo if working much, socializing, indulging in sensuality and worrying about this or that, then i would not even expect it at all.

How to actually enter it, it enters by itself more or less. You sit not thinking about unwholesome stuff, taking up a theme for the mind and feel body become tranquil and pleasurable "warm chills" fill the whole body it is also accompanied by joy a lot, it brightens up or like enhances feelings, seemingly stable and pleasurable one just feel like smiling. It fades for many reasons, ie becoming overexcited or distracted from the theme.
Also intially it can be hard to relax about it because one is so deprived of sensuality usually that it can become an obsession and craving for getting it and staying in it is a thing. As one enters it more and more frequently, one enters it for longer periods and faster.

For Asubha you just recite, envision and contemplate, as one gets very into it, signs start to appear by itself. IE you may be thinking about the heart, it s color or shape, then next thing that happens is you see a brain, teeth, intenstines or other organ very clearly. If you learn to stabilize these then they can be used to enter "absorbtion" as people told me.

Absorption and what i call 5 factored Jhana are different things. I am not sure if what i refer to as 5F1J is what is referred to in Sutta but the absorbtion is a lot different, it is full absorbtion into the object of meditation, there one can stay for long time easily.

feel free to discuss:
IE if one was meditating and perceived a sign of a diamond, that is still Rupa Jhana how i understand it as the imaginary sign is also Rupa. The presence of the sign does not constitute a Jhana or Not Jhana, but based on the Sign one gets absorbed and on mastering the sign on can enter the Formless Jhanas. Question is can one be in a Rupa Jhana without Absorbtion & or Sign? If yes then what i described as 5F1J seems to be rightfully said.

It is something that is hard to get and hard to keep at home. Ive meditated as hard as i can to figure these things out and according to yours truly there is really nothing else that is going to happen. Either the pleasurable state or signs and visions. Also ones first absorbtion can be supramundane, so without prior attainment of Absorbtion ones first Absorbtion experience can be Nibbana if that is what one is training for.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:43 am, edited 6 times in total.

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2094
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Zom » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:44 pm

it seems like there are several types of jhana.

IE upakilesa sutta describes lights and visions also VSM talks about attaining Signs.
Then there is the 5 factored 1st Jhana..
There are no different types of jhana, but there are, as I see it, 2 types of jhanic classification: old one (pre-buddhist) and new one (buddhist). I wrote about it here: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=30771
Last edited by Zom on Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rightviewftw
Posts: 1599
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:46 pm

Zom wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:44 pm
it seems like there are several types of jhana.

IE upakilesa sutta describes lights and visions also VSM talks about attaining Signs.
Then there is the 5 factored 1st Jhana..
There are no different types of jhana, but there are 2 types of jhanic classification: old one (pre-buddhist) and new one (buddhist). I wrote about it here: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=30771
good info thanks. It does make sense.
What is ur preferred translation of Jhana?

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2094
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Zom » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:58 pm

cool thanks, what is ur preferred translation of Jhana?
As far as I remember, Ven Sujato said, that etymologicalу "jhana" means "burning" or "blazing". If this is true (I'm not a linguist), then I think Buddha chose this word to explain visual side of jhana - literally - meaning that very light perceived in jhana. Thus, in a certain way, this corresponds both in name and meaning with old term used, probably, by pre-buddhists - light (obhasa). And because things are so complex here, I'd leave "jhana" untranslated.

User avatar
Kamran
Posts: 458
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:14 am

Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Kamran » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:07 am

When I read Leigh Brasington description below I was shocked that it was ***identical*** to a wonderful meditation experience I had but have not since been able to reproduce.

http://www.leighb.com/jhana3.htm
"Silence gives answers"

Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi

rightviewftw
Posts: 1599
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:18 am

Kamran wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:07 am
When I read Leigh Brasington description below I was shocked that it was ***identical*** to a wonderful meditation experience I had but have not since been able to reproduce.

http://www.leighb.com/jhana3.htm
it seems to me that states like that are sometimes also called loosely "sukha experiences" by people in training, often people drift in and out of pleasurable and painful states without thinking much about it. Would be hard to tell for sure if it is "a thing" or not unless one started getting mastery and making sense of it, discerning fading of factors and all that.

User avatar
Nwad
Posts: 160
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 pm

Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Nwad » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:14 pm

Kamran wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:07 am
When I read Leigh Brasington description below I was shocked that it was ***identical*** to a wonderful meditation experience I had but have not since been able to reproduce.

http://www.leighb.com/jhana3.htm
This one?

"In this altered state of consciousness, you will be overcome with Rapture ... Euphoria … Ecstasy … Delight. These are all English words that are used to translate the Pali word piti. Piti is this physical sensation that literally takes you over and takes you into an altered state. It will be accompanied by an emotional sensation of joy and happiness. The Pali word is sukha, the opposite of dukkha [pain, suffering]. And, if you remain one-pointed on this experience of piti and sukha, that is the first jhana."

I had one too, but i dont know how i did it, so never more arrived. I was sitting in metta practice, and then, when concentrated on heart, from my heart there is arrived a HUUUGE vawe of pleasure !! It rised and rised!! So HUGE that i'he never see it before, so HUGE that actually i get affraid :tongue: (like young Buddha under the tree near the river who get affraid of jhanna pleasure? Dont remeber the sutta number..) And when i get affraid of a such huge pleasure, and my mind tryed to take it under control, rather than let it go and let it grow - its stopped...

Never see it again... :broke:

User avatar
Idappaccayata
Posts: 103
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:54 pm

Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Idappaccayata » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:26 pm

Zom wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:58 pm
cool thanks, what is ur preferred translation of Jhana?
As far as I remember, Ven Sujato said, that etymologicalу "jhana" means "burning" or "blazing". If this is true (I'm not a linguist), then I think Buddha chose this word to explain visual side of jhana - literally - meaning that very light perceived in jhana. Thus, in a certain way, this corresponds both in name and meaning with old term used, probably, by pre-buddhists - light (obhasa). And because things are so complex here, I'd leave "jhana" untranslated.
Thanissaro said it's related to the verb jayati (spelling?) Which means to burn steadily, and used to be used to describe the steady flame of an oil lamp. This doesn't seem so much like bright visual lights when described that way.
The furniture may be exquisite,
And the bars of solid gold,
But once the bird realizes that the cage is a cage,
It finds within that cage
No joy

- Ajahn Jayasaro

User avatar
Dmytro
Posts: 1532
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine
Contact:

Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Dmytro » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:00 pm

Idappaccayata wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:26 pm
Thanissaro said it's related to the verb jayati (spelling?) Which means to burn steadily, and used to be used to describe the steady flame of an oil lamp. This doesn't seem so much like bright visual lights when described that way.
Yes, indeed.

Jhāyati1 [Sk. dhyāyati, dhī; with dhīra, dhīḥ from didheti shine, perceive; cp. Goth. filu -- deisei cunning, & in meaning cinteti]citta1] to meditate, contemplate, think upon, brood over (c. acc.): search for, hunt after D ii.237 (jhānaŋ); S i.25, 57; A v.323 sq. (+pa,˚ ni,˚ ava˚); Sn 165, 221, 425, 709, 818 (=Nd1 149 pa˚, ni˚, ava˚); Dh 27, 371, 395; J i.67, 410; Vv 5012; Pv iv.166;

Miln 66; SnA 320 (aor. jhāyiŋsu thought of). -- pp. jhāyita.

http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/p ... :1857.pali

User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:25 pm

really work on your sīla, master the five precepts and then the eight, give alms to monks/bhikkhunīs if you have a local saṅgha, read a lot of dhamma in your preferred language
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2094
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Zom » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:10 pm

Thanissaro said it's related to the verb jayati (spelling?) Which means to burn steadily, and used to be used to describe the steady flame of an oil lamp. This doesn't seem so much like bright visual lights when described that way.
But still much better (closer) than any other meaning, like, I don't know - falling into water :D

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests