How to reach the 1st Jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Nwad
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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Nwad » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:09 pm

Zom wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:33 am

1) First jhana: "...abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion". Here we see only pleasant factors, rapture and pleasure. This fits well with SN 48.40, because only PAIN ends here, not pleasure.
Hmm... But if we take your logic and suppose that when its said that in 1st jhana there is "rapture" it means that "pain" is end, so why he say that there is "pleasure" while "displeasure" ends only in 3th?...
I dont know, but i feel that your explication is too complicated... Actualy its based on interpretation of sutta, not on sutta it self... I respect your knowledge but i think if pain ends in 1st jhana Buddha would said it clearly without doubts, why he'd like us to search between lines? If there is no pain why he say it only in 4th, while it ends in 1st?...
I dont know i have some doubts about this iterpretation... :( Its feels 'constructed'

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Zom » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:34 pm

Hmm... But if we take your logic and suppose that when its said that in 1st jhana there is "rapture" it means that "pain" is end, so why he say that there is "pleasure" while "displeasure" ends only in 3th?...
I dont know, but i feel that your explication is too complicated... Actualy its based on interpretation of sutta, not on sutta it self... I respect your knowledge but i think if pain ends in 1st jhana Buddha would said it clearly without doubts, why he'd like us to search between lines? If there is no pain why he say it only in 4th, while it ends in 1st?...
I dont know i have some doubts about this iterpretation... :( Its feels 'constructed'
You have to read carefully everything again. All there in the suttas - this is not "my" explanation - this is what Buddha actually says. You can go directly into Pali if you want. Or into commentaries. Or into Ven. Bodhi notes. It doesn't matter, explanation will be the same.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Nwad » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:59 pm

Hmm...
The problem that i have is that i dont understand - why somethink of "perfect" (in the beggining, middle and end) need to be commented or read between lines? :s

I will put this question aside, perhaps i will find some explenation or comprehention while re-reading Suttanta ;)

Thank you Zom anyway !

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Zom » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:32 pm

The problem that i have is that i dont understand - why somethink of "perfect" (in the beggining, middle and end) need to be commented or read between lines? :s
There is no "between lines". There is the situation that no teaching is fully and in detail expounded in 1 single sutta. You have to read many and then compile information gathered in order to get proper understanding of the subject.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:18 pm

it seems like there are several types of jhana.

IE upakilesa sutta describes lights and visions also VSM talks about attaining Signs.
Then there is the 5 factored 1st Jhana..

For vision and signs, probably takes samatha oriented method ie Asubha will work, most likely one will see organs basicly. I know a monk who does breath meditation and sees signs as well, ie a diamond or light, according to him there is not much technique to bring it about, one just focuses on the breath, it is worth noting that he does not train Satipatthana much formally, so his breath meditation as i eventually seemingly understood is more of stilling the mind and staying with the in and out breaths rather than noting Satipatthanas much, he likes the saw similie a lot fwiw and also afaik teaches perception of death using a kasina technique which also produces signs.

The 5 factored Jhana as i understand it, is initially fleeting, pleasurable, unstable but eventually is almost a auto-enter IF appamata and faculties allow for it but one such as this can probably do the other Sign things just as easily as hindrances are easily supressed. I dare not say if one is easier or harder than the other, idk.

If earnestly training, guarding the mind, doing formal meditation at least a couple hours, keeps 10 precepts and secluded from unwholesome states, id expect one will start entering the 1st Five Factored Jhana in about a week but its based solely on my own subjective experiences i assume it is different for people a lot. On flipside imo if working much, socializing, indulging in sensuality and worrying about this or that, then i would not even expect it at all.

How to actually enter it, it enters by itself more or less. You sit not thinking about unwholesome stuff, taking up a theme for the mind and feel body become tranquil and pleasurable "warm chills" fill the whole body it is also accompanied by joy a lot, it brightens up or like enhances feelings, seemingly stable and pleasurable one just feel like smiling. It fades for many reasons, ie becoming overexcited or distracted from the theme.
Also intially it can be hard to relax about it because one is so deprived of sensuality usually that it can become an obsession and craving for getting it and staying in it is a thing. As one enters it more and more frequently, one enters it for longer periods and faster.

For Asubha you just recite, envision and contemplate, as one gets very into it, signs start to appear by itself. IE you may be thinking about the heart, it s color or shape, then next thing that happens is you see a brain, teeth, intenstines or other organ very clearly. If you learn to stabilize these then they can be used to enter "absorbtion" as people told me.

Absorption and what i call 5 factored Jhana are different things. I am not sure if what i refer to as 5F1J is what is referred to in Sutta but the absorbtion is a lot different, it is full absorbtion into the object of meditation, there one can stay for long time easily.

feel free to discuss:
IE if one was meditating and perceived a sign of a diamond, that is still Rupa Jhana how i understand it as the imaginary sign is also Rupa. The presence of the sign does not constitute a Jhana or Not Jhana, but based on the Sign one gets absorbed and on mastering the sign on can enter the Formless Jhanas. Question is can one be in a Rupa Jhana without Absorbtion & or Sign? If yes then what i described as 5F1J seems to be rightfully said.

It is something that is hard to get and hard to keep at home. Ive meditated as hard as i can to figure these things out and according to yours truly there is really nothing else that is going to happen. Either the pleasurable state or signs and visions. Also ones first absorbtion can be supramundane, so without prior attainment of Absorbtion ones first Absorbtion experience can be Nibbana if that is what one is training for.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:43 am, edited 6 times in total.
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How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Ven. Kutukurunde Nanananda's (Developing Metta)
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Zom » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:44 pm

it seems like there are several types of jhana.

IE upakilesa sutta describes lights and visions also VSM talks about attaining Signs.
Then there is the 5 factored 1st Jhana..
There are no different types of jhana, but there are, as I see it, 2 types of jhanic classification: old one (pre-buddhist) and new one (buddhist). I wrote about it here: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=30771
Last edited by Zom on Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:46 pm

Zom wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:44 pm
it seems like there are several types of jhana.

IE upakilesa sutta describes lights and visions also VSM talks about attaining Signs.
Then there is the 5 factored 1st Jhana..
There are no different types of jhana, but there are 2 types of jhanic classification: old one (pre-buddhist) and new one (buddhist). I wrote about it here: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=30771
good info thanks. It does make sense.
What is ur preferred translation of Jhana?
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Ven. Kutukurunde Nanananda's (Developing Metta)
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Parallel Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Zom » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:58 pm

cool thanks, what is ur preferred translation of Jhana?
As far as I remember, Ven Sujato said, that etymologicalу "jhana" means "burning" or "blazing". If this is true (I'm not a linguist), then I think Buddha chose this word to explain visual side of jhana - literally - meaning that very light perceived in jhana. Thus, in a certain way, this corresponds both in name and meaning with old term used, probably, by pre-buddhists - light (obhasa). And because things are so complex here, I'd leave "jhana" untranslated.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Kamran » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:07 am

When I read Leigh Brasington description below I was shocked that it was ***identical*** to a wonderful meditation experience I had but have not since been able to reproduce.

http://www.leighb.com/jhana3.htm
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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:18 am

Kamran wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:07 am
When I read Leigh Brasington description below I was shocked that it was ***identical*** to a wonderful meditation experience I had but have not since been able to reproduce.

http://www.leighb.com/jhana3.htm
it seems to me that states like that are sometimes also called loosely "sukha experiences" by people in training, often people drift in and out of pleasurable and painful states without thinking much about it. Would be hard to tell for sure if it is "a thing" or not unless one started getting mastery and making sense of it, discerning fading of factors and all that.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Ven. Kutukurunde Nanananda's (Developing Metta)
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Parallel Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Nwad » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:14 pm

Kamran wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:07 am
When I read Leigh Brasington description below I was shocked that it was ***identical*** to a wonderful meditation experience I had but have not since been able to reproduce.

http://www.leighb.com/jhana3.htm
This one?

"In this altered state of consciousness, you will be overcome with Rapture ... Euphoria … Ecstasy … Delight. These are all English words that are used to translate the Pali word piti. Piti is this physical sensation that literally takes you over and takes you into an altered state. It will be accompanied by an emotional sensation of joy and happiness. The Pali word is sukha, the opposite of dukkha [pain, suffering]. And, if you remain one-pointed on this experience of piti and sukha, that is the first jhana."

I had one too, but i dont know how i did it, so never more arrived. I was sitting in metta practice, and then, when concentrated on heart, from my heart there is arrived a HUUUGE vawe of pleasure !! It rised and rised!! So HUGE that i'he never see it before, so HUGE that actually i get affraid :tongue: (like young Buddha under the tree near the river who get affraid of jhanna pleasure? Dont remeber the sutta number..) And when i get affraid of a such huge pleasure, and my mind tryed to take it under control, rather than let it go and let it grow - its stopped...

Never see it again... :broke:

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Idappaccayata » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:26 pm

Zom wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:58 pm
cool thanks, what is ur preferred translation of Jhana?
As far as I remember, Ven Sujato said, that etymologicalу "jhana" means "burning" or "blazing". If this is true (I'm not a linguist), then I think Buddha chose this word to explain visual side of jhana - literally - meaning that very light perceived in jhana. Thus, in a certain way, this corresponds both in name and meaning with old term used, probably, by pre-buddhists - light (obhasa). And because things are so complex here, I'd leave "jhana" untranslated.
Thanissaro said it's related to the verb jayati (spelling?) Which means to burn steadily, and used to be used to describe the steady flame of an oil lamp. This doesn't seem so much like bright visual lights when described that way.
The furniture may be exquisite,
And the bars of solid gold,
But once the bird realizes that the cage is a cage,
It finds within that cage
No joy

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Dmytro » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:00 pm

Idappaccayata wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:26 pm
Thanissaro said it's related to the verb jayati (spelling?) Which means to burn steadily, and used to be used to describe the steady flame of an oil lamp. This doesn't seem so much like bright visual lights when described that way.
Yes, indeed.

Jhāyati1 [Sk. dhyāyati, dhī; with dhīra, dhīḥ from didheti shine, perceive; cp. Goth. filu -- deisei cunning, & in meaning cinteti]citta1] to meditate, contemplate, think upon, brood over (c. acc.): search for, hunt after D ii.237 (jhānaŋ); S i.25, 57; A v.323 sq. (+pa,˚ ni,˚ ava˚); Sn 165, 221, 425, 709, 818 (=Nd1 149 pa˚, ni˚, ava˚); Dh 27, 371, 395; J i.67, 410; Vv 5012; Pv iv.166;

Miln 66; SnA 320 (aor. jhāyiŋsu thought of). -- pp. jhāyita.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:25 pm

really work on your sīla, master the five precepts and then the eight, give alms to monks/bhikkhunīs if you have a local saṅgha, read a lot of dhamma in your preferred language
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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Zom » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:10 pm

Thanissaro said it's related to the verb jayati (spelling?) Which means to burn steadily, and used to be used to describe the steady flame of an oil lamp. This doesn't seem so much like bright visual lights when described that way.
But still much better (closer) than any other meaning, like, I don't know - falling into water :D

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by thepea » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:58 pm

Zom wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:10 pm
Thanissaro said it's related to the verb jayati (spelling?) Which means to burn steadily, and used to be used to describe the steady flame of an oil lamp. This doesn't seem so much like bright visual lights when described that way.
But still much better (closer) than any other meaning, like, I don't know - falling into water :D
It seems to explain the sensation of first jhana when you absorb into suffering and begin to burn up your defilements. If you look on the surface the sensations associated with unpleasant are there if you look deeper they break apart.
At this point there is no aversion to these sensation but in order to have proper samadhi you must not crave for this subtler state.
At this point you can sit for longer periods without craving and aversion and you make progress on the path.
You can also continuously reach this state but have craving to this state you can also sit for long periods of time but you are increasing your craving and not progressing on the path.
With proper samadhi there is awareness with balance and calm, with this one can move into subtler states 2-3-4thjhanas but same rules apply if there is craving you are not burning up your defilements.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:20 am

thepea wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:58 pm
Zom wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:10 pm
Thanissaro said it's related to the verb jayati (spelling?) Which means to burn steadily, and used to be used to describe the steady flame of an oil lamp. This doesn't seem so much like bright visual lights when described that way.
But still much better (closer) than any other meaning, like, I don't know - falling into water :D
It seems to explain the sensation of first jhana when you absorb into suffering and begin to burn up your defilements. If you look on the surface the sensations associated with unpleasant are there if you look deeper they break apart.
At this point there is no aversion to these sensation but in order to have proper samadhi you must not crave for this subtler state.
At this point you can sit for longer periods without craving and aversion and you make progress on the path.
You can also continuously reach this state but have craving to this state you can also sit for long periods of time but you are increasing your craving and not progressing on the path.
With proper samadhi there is awareness with balance and calm, with this one can move into subtler states 2-3-4thjhanas but same rules apply if there is craving you are not burning up your defilements.
Please tell us which defilements you have burned up? Jhana is a temporary state. How can a temporary state burn up what you call defilements? This is an illusion extraordinaire. It has been shown over and over again that when meditators come out of jhana, there is no fundamental change that has taken place. You have simply created a calm state of mind in comparison with what you usually experience in your daily life. You remain a divided 'entity' in your cognition of subject and object. This cognitive process is untouched by jhanas because it is part of the cognitive process.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:10 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:20 am
Please tell us which defilements you have burned up? Jhana is a temporary state. How can a temporary state burn up what you call defilements?
Buddhist jhana appears to burn up defilements. Arahantship is said to "uproot" defilement rather than "burn up". The burning up of defilements would even start with the proper practise of morality. To quote:
...those bhikkhus who have... attenuated lust, hate and delusion are all once-returners... MN 22
Somewhere, i recall, the suttas say the Buddha said the inclination towards sensuality is largely reduced when the superior non-sensual pleasure of jhana is developed; that is; before his mind developed jhana, it could wander back to thoughts of sensuality.
Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:20 am
It has been shown over and over again that when meditators come out of jhana, there is no fundamental change that has taken place. You have simply created a calm state of mind in comparison with what you usually experience in your daily life.
It seems the above idea is not referring to Buddhist Ariya Samma Samadhi Jhana.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by thepea » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:13 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:20 am

Please tell us which defilements you have burned up? Jhana is a temporary state. How can a temporary state burn up what you call defilements? This is an illusion extraordinaire. It has been shown over and over again that when meditators come out of jhana, there is no fundamental change that has taken place. You have simply created a calm state of mind in comparison with what you usually experience in your daily life. You remain a divided 'entity' in your cognition of subject and object. This cognitive process is untouched by jhanas because it is part of the cognitive process.
There is less craving less aversion and less ignorance due to burning up a good portion of this.
When we work appropriately we see three characteristics this is how the bonds are broken.
Perhaps the meditators you refer to have not right samadhi and are filled with craving to these states?
With proper morality arises proper samadhi which allows the liberativecwisdom ti arise. How is a meditator the same after gaining experiential wisdom?

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by manas » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:18 pm

I think reading many different suttas, then comparing them, is a good thing. However, much in the suttas can be hard to understand, until it has been explained to one, by a dhamma teacher, and if you are interested in jhana according to the suttas, choose your teacher with care, find one who bases their Buddhism on the Pali Nikayas. I go back and forth, listening to explanations of the dhamma, then rereading important suttas or passages, then listening again, then reading the same sutta with a deeper understanding...a gradual process. Of course, one also gradually 'feels one's way' to the physical and mental 'seclusion' that jhana is said to be 'born of', gradually, with practice over a period of time, and in my experience, with a fair bit of trial and error.

:anjali:
Last edited by manas on Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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