How to reach the 1st Jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Pseudobabble
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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Pseudobabble » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:56 am

Nwad wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:42 pm

How to do it?
Read and follow this book. It has been highly effective for me.

Please bear in mind this is something that will require dedicated daily practice, with sessions of 45 minutes minimum, and continual mindfulness throughout the day.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Nwad
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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Nwad » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:29 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:56 am
Nwad wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:42 pm

How to do it?
Read and follow this book. It has been highly effective for me.

Please bear in mind this is something that will require dedicated daily practice, with sessions of 45 minutes minimum, and continual mindfulness throughout the day.
Thank you Pseudo :)
This book not goes against Bouddha teachings?

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Pseudobabble
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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Pseudobabble » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:34 am

Nwad wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:29 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:56 am
Nwad wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:42 pm

How to do it?
Read and follow this book. It has been highly effective for me.

Please bear in mind this is something that will require dedicated daily practice, with sessions of 45 minutes minimum, and continual mindfulness throughout the day.
Thank you Pseudo :)
This book not goes against Bouddha teachings?
No I don't think it goes against the Buddha's teachings.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Modus.Ponens » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:20 am

Nwad wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:29 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:56 am
Nwad wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:42 pm

How to do it?
Read and follow this book. It has been highly effective for me.

Please bear in mind this is something that will require dedicated daily practice, with sessions of 45 minutes minimum, and continual mindfulness throughout the day.
Thank you Pseudo :)
This book not goes against Bouddha teachings?
Culadasa is a lay buddhist teacher. He has some videos no YouTube. The videos I watched were good.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Zom
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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Zom » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:45 am

I have met such people.
Have you personally observed them sitting for 10+ hours without movement in one place? Because without that this is not a proof, no matter what one says.
Jhana can be a useful tool, but as a temporary state it is not the ultimate goal of Buddhism.
Jhana is a must-have tool for the ultimate goal of Buddhism. Again, MN 64.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Caodemarte » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:38 pm

Zom wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:45 am
I have met such people.
Have you personally observed them sitting for 10+ hours without movement in one place? Because without that this is not a proof, no matter what one says.
Jhana can be a useful tool, but as a temporary state it is not the ultimate goal of Buddhism.
Jhana is a must-have tool for the ultimate goal of Buddhism. Again, MN 64.
Being alive is a must have tool for the ultimate goal of Buddhism. It is not a superhuman ability. Samadhi or jhana can be helpful. They are not superhuman abilities. You can be in such a state in any of the four postures, but neither being alive or such temporary states leads inevitably to liberation. Being a samadhi or jhana junkie is not helpful.

Long sitting stays in jhana, even in Hindu or other non-Buddhist traditions, can be observed if you stand in front of a meditator who uses such periods and wait. I can’t imagine anybody being that interested. if you go on a retreat you will likely find people who ignore the rest periods and sit continually for long periods (you can check in on them occasionally to see that they are still sitting).

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Zom » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:20 pm

Being alive is a must have tool for the ultimate goal of Buddhism. It is not a superhuman ability. Samadhi or jhana can be helpful. They are not superhuman abilities. You can be in such a state in any of the four postures, but neither being alive or such temporary states leads inevitably to liberation. Being a samadhi or jhana junkie is not helpful.
You are arguing without knowing what Buddha said on the matter. Why do that? Because he did say it is a a superhuman ability and a must-have ability as well.

Long sitting stays in jhana, even in Hindu or other non-Buddhist traditions, can be observed if you stand in front of a meditator who uses such periods and wait. I can’t imagine anybody being that interested. if you go on a retreat you will likely find people who ignore the rest periods and sit continually for long periods (you can check in on them occasionally to see that they are still sitting).
Ok, you haven't seen, but only heard "this can be seen" somewhere. And I tell you - you won't see this. Yes, there meditators who meditate a lot here or there or somewhere. But no one among them can demonstrate 10+ hours sitting. Just because they don't have jhana - this is why they just can't. Too painful for them to sit that long.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Aloof » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:19 pm

A person lives and develops Wisdom.
Wisdom is advanced powerful antivirus system that will stop you from doing anything against that system.
Suppose you have over many births developed a Wisdom that I will never steal.
Now if you are facing death or any other serious problem unless you steal ......your system will face death rather than steal. And all your logic will fail you to save yourself . This is Wisdom and beginning of a Jhanna.
This Jhanna has a certain frequency . When this frequency is very strong , it connects you to Universal mind . This Universal mind emits thousands of Jhannas. And one of them is your Jhanna (strong Wisdom).
When they come in contact with each other , You now become the master of that Jhanna.

Even this one Jannah opens a lot of advantages for you...... some of them are..

1. you come into a loop of universal mind and you become a Bhoddisattva. You have entered Mahayana. Your health, fullfillments of desires and life will increase.
2. Your subseqent Jhannas will start growing easily.
3 Your Buddhahood also will start getting nearer. etc.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Caodemarte » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:14 pm

Zom wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:20 pm
Being alive is a must have tool for the ultimate goal of Buddhism. It is not a superhuman ability. Samadhi or jhana can be helpful. They are not superhuman abilities. You can be in such a state in any of the four postures, but neither being alive or such temporary states leads inevitably to liberation. Being a samadhi or jhana junkie is not helpful.
You are arguing without knowing what Buddha said on the matter. Why do that? Because he did say it is a a superhuman ability and a must-have ability as well.

Long sitting stays in jhana, even in Hindu or other non-Buddhist traditions, can be observed if you stand in front of a meditator who uses such periods and wait. I can’t imagine anybody being that interested. if you go on a retreat you will likely find people who ignore the rest periods and sit continually for long periods (you can check in on them occasionally to see that they are still sitting).
Ok, you haven't seen, but only heard "this can be seen" somewhere. And I tell you - you won't see this. Yes, there meditators who meditate a lot here or there or somewhere. But no one among them can demonstrate 10+ hours sitting. Just because they don't have jhana - this is why they just can't. Too painful for them to sit that long.
Again, this can and has been observed in many traditions. I invite you visit any reputable training monastery if you wish to stand over a meditator and watch. How long you stay In jhana is not terribly important and, as far as I can see, you apparently are the only one who wants to see this claimed, demonstrated or “proven.” However, sItting a long time is not evidence of jhana. Long periods of jhana are neither evidence of enlightenment or superhuman. The entire point of Buddhism is lost if liberation is seen as something only superhumans can achieve. Many people are flexible enough to sit on full lotus for an indefinite period, even sleep in that position, and it it is not painful for them. The dead do it all the time!

If you believe otherwise, that’s fine. I don’t see the need to keep restating positions.
Last edited by Caodemarte on Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Zom » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:17 pm

Many people are flexible enough to sit on full lotus for an indefinite period
It seems like you've never meditated long enough and also have a poor knowledge of physiology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_ulcer

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Nwad » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:28 pm

Zom wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:20 pm
You are arguing without knowing what Buddha said on the matter. Why do that? Because he did say it is a a superhuman ability and a must-have ability as well.
Do you know Zom, if this ability have to be developped fully, or if for exemple you attain it once and then no more - it's still good? I dont remember if Buddha said about this... :thinking: What do you think ?

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Zom » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:32 pm

Do you know Zom, if this ability have to be developped fully, or if for exemple you attain it once and then no more - it's still good? I dont remember if Buddha said about this... :thinking: What do you think ?
If you want arahantship, it has to be developed up to the 4th jhana at least, which means the completion of the 8th path factor. Actually, all reports about non-returners say that even they have already got all 4 jhanas (and texts also confirm that by saying that a non-returner is a person with perfect samadhi). However, I think, non-returning may be possible with the attainment of the 1st jhana. At least, as Autumn sutta says, if you die with 1st jhana and right views, you'll reborn in Pure Adobes as a non-returner, leaving Sense Realm forever.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Caodemarte » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:34 pm

Zom wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:17 pm
...It seems like you've never meditated long enough and also have a poor knowledge of physiology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_ulcer
Oh, really?
Last edited by Caodemarte on Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Nwad » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:21 am

Zom wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:32 pm
Do you know Zom, if this ability have to be developped fully, or if for exemple you attain it once and then no more - it's still good? I dont remember if Buddha said about this... :thinking: What do you think ?
If you want arahantship, it has to be developed up to the 4th jhana at least, which means the completion of the 8th path factor. Actually, all reports about non-returners say that even they have already got all 4 jhanas (and texts also confirm that by saying that a non-returner is a person with perfect samadhi). However, I think, non-returning may be possible with the attainment of the 1st jhana. At least, as Autumn sutta says, if you die with 1st jhana and right views, you'll reborn in Pure Adobes as a non-returner, leaving Sense Realm forever.
Thank you Zom !

I have another question about pain. Did you do any statistic of suttas dividing on two classes:
1. suttas where pain and pleasure cesse only in 4th jhana
2. suttas where pain faculty cesse from 1st jhana?

Because if there is only some suttas about cessation of pain from 1st and many of suttas with cessation of pain in 4th, should we concider that there is some variables or "errors"? I think we should make such a study... Because when i read some of my sutta notes and i see : DN2 (pain stops in 4th jhana), MN67 (1-3jhanas are perturbables, 4th is imperturbable), MN78.12 (once-retourner from 1st jhana), MN111(pain stops from 4thjhana), AN5.176 (1-2jhana as practice to lay followers), AN9.36(Nibbana from 1st jhana?), ... from all suttas that i mentioned about jhanas (from middle of MN and AN) there is 3 about pain stops only in 4th, and no one about pain stops in 1st...
What do you think? Have you some data about jhana suttas to study it?

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Zom » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:33 am

I have another question about pain. Did you do any statistic of suttas dividing on two classes:
1. suttas where pain and pleasure cesse only in 4th jhana
2. suttas where pain faculty cesse from 1st jhana?

Because if there is only some suttas about cessation of pain from 1st and many of suttas with cessation of pain in 4th, should we concider that there is some variables or "errors"?
You read it in some wrong way. All jhanic formulas in the texts are perfectly correlated with each other. Let us take two important suttas at first: SN 48.36 and SN 48.40. If one wants to understand jhanas, one has to remember them (or at least just the numbers) by heart.

First text says there are 5 feelings of mental and bodily origin:

1) Pleasure: comfortable feeling born of body-contact, a bodily feeling
2) Pain: uncomfortable feeling born of body-contact, a bodily feeling
3) Joy: mental comfort, the pleasant comfortable feeling born of mind-contact, a mental feeling
4) Displeasure: mental discomfort, the painful uncomfortable feeling born of mind-contact, a mental feeling
5) Equanimity: either mental or bodily neutral feeling without any comfort or discomfort

Next sutta says in what jhana each of these feelings ends totally:

1) 1st Jhana - Pain totally ceases, no bodily discomfort in the 1st jhana
2) 2nd Jhana - Displeasure totally ceases, no mental discomfort in the 2nd jhana
3) 3rd Jhana - Pleasure totally ceases, no bodily pleasure in the 3rd jhana
4) 4th jhana - Joy totally ceases, no mental pleasure in the 4th jhana

Sutta continues to say that Equanimity remains in 4th jhana and following 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th arupa-attainments. However, it ceases upon reaching Nirodha Samapatti which comes after 4th arupa-attainment. This is where it ends, along with all mentality/mind altogether. But that doesn't matter for this topic.

Now, lets take standard jhanic formulas from any sutta:

1) First jhana: "...abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion". Here we see only pleasant factors, rapture and pleasure. This fits well with SN 48.40, because only PAIN ends here, not pleasure.

2) Second jhana: "...with rapture and pleasure born of concentration". If also fits, because here only DISPLEASURE ends.

3) Third jhana: "...with the fading away as well of rapture a bhikkhu abides in equanimity, and mindful and fully aware, still feeling pleasure with the body, he enters upon and abides in the third jhana, on account of which noble ones announce: ‘He has a pleasant abiding who has equanimity and is mindful".

Here can be misreading if you take pleasure and body as bodily aspect. However, it is not. Pleasure with the body here means "experience of happiness", where body means "mental group" - just as in the case with "bodily-witness" who is explained as a meditator who "touches with the body" arupa-attainments (and of course body means mental body, because there can't be normal body in arupa loka). More about it here. This way this also fits perfectly with the scheme, because only bodily pleasure ends in 3rd jhana - and when it ends - bodily equanimity takes its place and appears for the first time as a type of feeling. If we were to read it in a wrong way, we'd get an absurd situation: joy and pleasure are there - and somehow at the same time there is equanimity.

4) Fourth jhana: "....with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and displeasure, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the fourth jhana, which has neither-pain-nor-pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to
equanimity."

Perfect coincidence with SN 48.40. All 4 feelings are mentioned as "disappeared". Pleasure ended in 3rd jhana, Pain ended in 1st jhana, Joy ended in 4th Jhana, Displeasure ended in 2nd jhana. And mental equanimity appears for the first time, coming in pair with previous bodily equanimity from the 3rd jhana.

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