How to reach the 1st Jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Zom
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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Zom » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:36 pm

For exemple if bodily feeling is "painfull", but mind do not interpret this feeling as "pain" and do not suffer from it.
It is steel a painfull feeling? Technicaly there is always a contact, or not?
This is not possible. Pain is pain, there is no way not to feel it just because you want to.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:43 am

auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:57 pm
i also said what it literally says, the same sutta you have is different wording than the one i linked.
its the same sutta... this sutta does not say the idea you wrote, namely: "you make faculty of concentration as an object to attain concentration". The sutta literally says: "Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako vos­saggā­rammaṇaṃ karitvā labhati samādhiṃ, labhati cittassa ekaggataṃ". The word "vossagga" means to: "letting go; given up; relaxaton; surrender; relinquishment", just as it is found in MN 118, which I posted, as follows:
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sati­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti vivekanissitaṃ virāganissitaṃ nirodha­nissitaṃ vos­sagga­pari­ṇāmiṃ. Dhamma­vicaya­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti … pe … vīriya­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti … pīti­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti … passad­dhi­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti … samā­dhi­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti … upekkhā­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti vivekanissitaṃ virāganissitaṃ nirodha­nissitaṃ vos­sagga­pari­ṇāmiṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/pi/mn118
The words vos­saggā­rammaṇaṃ either mean "letting go as the object" or "having relinquished sense objects". However, given "vossagga" appears to be a "noun" rather than a "verb" (vossajati), is appears the translation by Thanissaro & Bodhi which say "vossagga" is the object is accurate.
auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:07 pm
Anapanasati Sutta, if to read it then you notice the order of things too, but it is backwards in hierarchy. Also breath is backwards and starts with discernment faculty instead of faculty of conviction. In order to do anapanasati you need already concentration, 4th jhana and discernment to see arising and passing away.
Arising & passing away (impermanence) is not mentioned in the Anapanasati Sutta until the 13th stage (even though it can obviously be discerned in different degrees prior to the 13th stage). Also, since the in & out breathing is discerned in every stage of Anapanasati, it appears Anapanasati is not related to jhana because awareness of breathing is not mentioned as a factor of any jhana in the suttas. In fact, SN 36.11 states the breathing completely ceases in the 4th jhana. If the breathing ceases in the 4th jhana, how can the 4th jhana be used for anapanasati?
When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has been stilled.

SN 36.11 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:23 am

auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:52 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:33 am
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:53 pm
And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making letting go the meditation object, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana...
The letting go seems to be the key here. Letting go of what? All views, which are different forms of knowledge, knowing. Thinking begins to abate. The state of not-knowing begins with the comfort and rapture that automatically are present when thinking, conceptuality, are let go of. This is a state of not-knowing. Some call it a communion, some call it being present, some call it a state of harmony, 4th jhana. For me, it has always been a via negativa, a letting go and an entering into a state of not-knowing. It is without views and without association with a personality. It is like the deepest prayer imaginable.
to be more punctuate.
open the link to the SN 48.10 and read the quote

"And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind....

It says, that you make faculty of concentration as an object to attain concentration.

but how you do it, it is you have before other faculties.
like:

"And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. He remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness.

If to read it then it looks simple, but you see points like remembering and able to call to mind past doings. Also stages, remaining focused on body, alert and mindful, putting aside greed then remains focused on feelings, then mind then mental qualities..way before the faculty of concentration and make it an object of concentration.
Once you have concentration and gone through what is there, then there is faculty of discernment where you see arising and passing away..

"And what is the faculty of discernment? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. He discerns, as it has come to be: 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the faculty of discernment.
For me, it is a simple process of letting go and being present. Deeply relaxing, your feeling takes over. When this happens, your thinking begins to dissipate into what I call not-knowing. Not-knowing allows the energies of the body to be felt more profoundly so there is a blissful state that is experienced. Your attention is both introverted and present. The conceptual stops. This puts you into a different state where thought is not the center. There is a knowingness in not-knowing, a state of balance. It has nothing to do with reasoning and analysis.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by auto » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:27 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:43 am
auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:57 pm
i also said what it literally says, the same sutta you have is different wording than the one i linked.
its the same sutta... this sutta does not say the idea you wrote, namely: "you make faculty of concentration as an object to attain concentration". The sutta literally says: "Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako vos­saggā­rammaṇaṃ karitvā labhati samādhiṃ, labhati cittassa ekaggataṃ". The word "vossagga" means to: "letting go; given up; relaxaton; surrender; relinquishment", just as it is found in MN 118, which I posted, as follows:
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sati­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti vivekanissitaṃ virāganissitaṃ nirodha­nissitaṃ vos­sagga­pari­ṇāmiṃ. Dhamma­vicaya­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti … pe … vīriya­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti … pīti­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti … passad­dhi­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti … samā­dhi­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti … upekkhā­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti vivekanissitaṃ virāganissitaṃ nirodha­nissitaṃ vos­sagga­pari­ṇāmiṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/pi/mn118
The words vos­saggā­rammaṇaṃ either mean "letting go as the object" or "having relinquished sense objects". However, given "vossagga" appears to be a "noun" rather than a "verb" (vossajati), is appears the translation by Thanissaro & Bodhi which say "vossagga" is the object is accurate.
auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:07 pm
Anapanasati Sutta, if to read it then you notice the order of things too, but it is backwards in hierarchy. Also breath is backwards and starts with discernment faculty instead of faculty of conviction. In order to do anapanasati you need already concentration, 4th jhana and discernment to see arising and passing away.
Arising & passing away (impermanence) is not mentioned in the Anapanasati Sutta until the 13th stage (even though it can obviously be discerned in different degrees prior to the 13th stage). Also, since the in & out breathing is discerned in every stage of Anapanasati, it appears Anapanasati is not related to jhana because awareness of breathing is not mentioned as a factor of any jhana in the suttas. In fact, SN 36.11 states the breathing completely ceases in the 4th jhana. If the breathing ceases in the 4th jhana, how can the 4th jhana be used for anapanasati?
When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has been stilled.

SN 36.11 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
But it is stilling the breath, not stopping the breath.
--
I meant the beginning story of anapanasati sutta ending before the detailed descriptions of mindfulness of breathing.
--
and the faculty of concentration, could mean backward concentration on itself. It also fulfill whatever letting go processes because it is turning away from world, senses inward.

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DooDoot
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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:34 am

auto wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:27 am
When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has been stilled.

SN 36.11 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
But it is stilling the breath, not stopping the breath.
The essential matter appears to be, based in the descriptions in the suttas, there is no awareness/experience of breathing in jhana, which is contrary to Anapanasati. If the breathing is stilled; given the breathing does not move; the breathing obviously cannot be discerned or felt, which is contrary to Anapanasati. This would appear why breathing is never mentioned as a factor of jhana; because breathing would appear to become so subtle, it cannot be felt; even in the 1st jhana; because all that can be felt is the feelings of rapture, happiness & equanimity. Where as in Anapanasati, the breathing is felt together with rapture.
He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.'

MN 118
This seems to support the Commentary view about three levels of concentration.
In concentration one distinguishes 3 grades of intensity:

1 'Preparatory concentration' parikamma-samādhi existing at the beginning of the mental exercise.

2 'Neighbourhood concentration' upacāra-samādhi i.e. concentration 'approaching' but not yet attaining the 1st absorption jhāna, which in certain mental exercises is marked by the appearance of the so-called 'counter-image' patibhāga-nimitta.

3 'Attainment concentration' appanā-samādhi i.e. that concentration which is present during the absorptions [jhāna].

https://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Samadhi

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by auto » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:49 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:34 am
auto wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:27 am
When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has been stilled.

SN 36.11 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
But it is stilling the breath, not stopping the breath.
The essential matter appears to be, based in the descriptions in the suttas, there is no awareness/experience of breathing in jhana, which is contrary to Anapanasati. If the breathing is stilled; given the breathing does not move; the breathing obviously cannot be discerned or felt, which is contrary to Anapanasati. This would appear why breathing is never mentioned as a factor of jhana; because breathing would appear to become so subtle, it cannot be felt; even in the 1st jhana; because all that can be felt is the feelings of rapture, happiness & equanimity. Where as in Anapanasati, the breathing is felt together with rapture.
He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.'

MN 118
This seems to support the Commentary view about three levels of concentration.
In concentration one distinguishes 3 grades of intensity:

1 'Preparatory concentration' parikamma-samādhi existing at the beginning of the mental exercise.

2 'Neighbourhood concentration' upacāra-samādhi i.e. concentration 'approaching' but not yet attaining the 1st absorption jhāna, which in certain mental exercises is marked by the appearance of the so-called 'counter-image' patibhāga-nimitta.

3 'Attainment concentration' appanā-samādhi i.e. that concentration which is present during the absorptions [jhāna].

https://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Samadhi
Sketchly:
Breathing has counterpart mind, it appears at the ends of in or out breath, where the breath is stilled at first very faint. It develops, till you can use the lower abdomen- out breath end area or head area- in breath end. In breath will be swallowed down, out breath is released as swarm of bubbles from lower sensual areas, it feels good.
Mind develops in sense organs, two eyes are made into one, switching between seeing and hearing the mind is felt in center of the brain(it moves in ear, eye channels). When it is mature then can defuse it and it is sucked into belly.
When it is in belly it can be then sucked or pulled up, it will again develops in center of head. When mature then it will arise in front of you and you have one pointed concetration on it and it will disappear, fade. The counterpart breath will reappear at some point, then it can be grabed and pulled into body..
Anyways the point is that the human body and anapanasati breathing uses same body, pathways. The counterpart or mind is discernible from regular breath at some point, it sources in head, and from that cavity the mind goes for a out breath.

But when you are aware of breath the path is opposite. So there is lots of confusion and states. Basically thats why when seeing something oh i got this now, i know how to do, but still fail. Or i don't know what to do, but then things will fall into places by themselves.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by auto » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:55 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:23 am
For me, it is a simple process of letting go and being present. Deeply relaxing, your feeling takes over. When this happens, your thinking begins to dissipate into what I call not-knowing. Not-knowing allows the energies of the body to be felt more profoundly so there is a blissful state that is experienced. Your attention is both introverted and present. The conceptual stops. This puts you into a different state where thought is not the center. There is a knowingness in not-knowing, a state of balance. It has nothing to do with reasoning and analysis.
Ok,
thinking is generating mind, it will force the mind into concetrated area in head. Letting go and being present is basically an out breath, the concentration disappears.
When you are being present, then the attention resting point is the area of concentration it will attach to the faculty, it develops and starts live. It can be the light of the seeing, it starts to increase in a nonmoving movement way.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:17 pm

auto wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:55 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:23 am
For me, it is a simple process of letting go and being present. Deeply relaxing, your feeling takes over. When this happens, your thinking begins to dissipate into what I call not-knowing. Not-knowing allows the energies of the body to be felt more profoundly so there is a blissful state that is experienced. Your attention is both introverted and present. The conceptual stops. This puts you into a different state where thought is not the center. There is a knowingness in not-knowing, a state of balance. It has nothing to do with reasoning and analysis.
Ok,
thinking is generating mind, it will force the mind into concetrated area in head. Letting go and being present is basically an out breath, the concentration disappears.
When you are being present, then the attention resting point is the area of concentration it will attach to the faculty, it develops and starts live. It can be the light of the seeing, it starts to increase in a nonmoving movement way.
There is no organ called mind. Thinking generates more thinking. It is a brain function. What I am talking about is simple, not manipulative. Can you be present without trying to change your experience? Your attention is only on what is taking place, not analyzing it. Your whole being is involved, not only your head.

auto
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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by auto » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:38 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:17 pm
There is no organ called mind. Thinking generates more thinking. It is a brain function. What I am talking about is simple, not manipulative. Can you be present without trying to change your experience? Your attention is only on what is taking place, not analyzing it. Your whole being is involved, not only your head.
Stay yourself in present moment, and start counting how many times you forget being in present moment. Any ideas what happen when you aren't in the present moment? mind might be in a place where you are not in control because if you were, you would screw things up and die.

Whole being is involved? present moment is a blanket is your protective bubble, when you burst it, you will see that same thing in objects and can cultivate or suck directly your essence.
--
now or present moment is important but the freshness quality of it is what is cultivated. It will build pressure and invigorate brain. The speed you gain is you will be able to see the sensation of 'jump scare'. Why you need develop or grow mind, its when you imagine something then you would get a real sensation in body without waiting flash memory from belly.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:03 am

auto wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:38 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:17 pm
There is no organ called mind. Thinking generates more thinking. It is a brain function. What I am talking about is simple, not manipulative. Can you be present without trying to change your experience? Your attention is only on what is taking place, not analyzing it. Your whole being is involved, not only your head.
Stay yourself in present moment, and start counting how many times you forget being in present moment. Any ideas what happen when you aren't in the present moment? mind might be in a place where you are not in control because if you were, you would screw things up and die.

Whole being is involved? present moment is a blanket is your protective bubble, when you burst it, you will see that same thing in objects and can cultivate or suck directly your essence.
--
now or present moment is important but the freshness quality of it is what is cultivated. It will build pressure and invigorate brain. The speed you gain is you will be able to see the sensation of 'jump scare'. Why you need develop or grow mind, its when you imagine something then you would get a real sensation in body without waiting flash memory from belly.
Sorry, but I can't understand what you are talking about.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by pegembara » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:36 am

I think the idea is to achieve a degree of stillness for this reason.
This is a metaphor for life and a metaphor to understand your real mind – which is naturally still – like a clear forest pool.

In life, many weird and wonderful people of all kinds will come into your life and go away back into their own lives – just like the many wonderful, rare animals that come to drink at the pool and then go off to do their own thing.

You are just sitting there quiet and still, beside the pool – observing all this. Your mind is like this too – your awareness observes all the comings and goings of all the wonderful people and animals that enter and go out of your life.

Yet your mind itself does not come and go with them – it just is naturally there, still, observing, letting things flow in and letting them flow out of themselves.

So in meditation too – you observe your thoughts coming into and going out of your mind. So you just allow them to flow in and out of your mind naturally. You just allow them to do their thing – just like you just allow the animals to do whatever the want to do in front of you at the clear forest pool.

So thoughts come into your mind and go out of your mind. Yet that which is aware of those thoughts, does not come and go with them, does it? It neither comes nor goes. It just observes. The awareness doesn’t move – only the things that appear before it move about. It is just naturally still, silent, naturally watching and aware.

Ajahn Chah
45. "Suppose there were a pool of water — sullied, turbid, and muddy. A man with good eyesight standing there on the bank would not see shells, gravel, and pebbles, or shoals of fish swimming about and resting. Why is that? Because of the sullied nature of the water. In the same way, that a monk with a sullied mind would know his own benefit, the benefit of others, the benefit of both; that he would realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction of knowledge & vision: Such a thing is impossible. Why is that? Because of the sullied nature of his mind."

46. "Suppose there were a pool of water — clear, limpid, and unsullied. A man with good eyesight standing there on the bank would see shells, gravel, & pebbles, and also shoals of fish swimming about and resting. Why is that? Because of the unsullied nature of the water. In the same way, that a monk with an unsullied mind would know his own benefit, the benefit of others, the benefit of both; that he would realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction of knowledge & vision: Such a thing is possible. Why is that? Because of the unsullied nature of his mind."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by pegembara » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:48 am

This may also be relevant- Samatha yoked with vipassana.
"Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now.

"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"The individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, should approach an individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment and ask him: 'How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

"As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

auto
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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by auto » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:02 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:03 am
Sorry, but I can't understand what you are talking about.
Human body, the sense organs, internal organs, brain, pathway/communication systems.

What is being present, where it belongs?

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Modus.Ponens » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:46 pm

Ayya Khema explains this topic, as well as many of the important insights from jhana practice.

http://dharmaseed.org/teacher/334/talk/7871/
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Caodemarte » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:52 pm

Zom wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:45 pm
.... I've never seen and never heard that any of these teachers could do this simple thing: sit for many hours in one posture without any trouble. Let's say: sit at 8 am and get up at 8 pm. Why? Obviously because jhana is a superhuman ability and there aren't many people in the world with superhuman abilities. 8-)
I have met such people. It is not a superhuman ability or that rare. Long sits like this are rare, but part of standard training for “advanced” monks across several Buddhist traditions. Jhana can be a useful tool, but as a temporary state it is not the ultimate goal of Buddhism.

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