How to reach the 1st Jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Nwad
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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Nwad » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:56 pm

Zom wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:45 pm
So far I don't know anyone who genuinely attain it and could sit for a very long time (except one person from Nepal but the situation with him is very controversial by now). There are many who teach, but again, I've never seen and never heard that any of these teachers could do this simple thing: sit for many hours in one posture without any trouble. Let's say: sit at 8 am and get up at 8 pm. Why? Obviously because jhana is a superhuman ability and there aren't many people in the world with superhuman abilities. 8-)
Oh...Its pretty sad :thinking:
And those who teach it, can you share some one's teaching which you apreciate the most ? (in PM if its to personal :) )

Now iam reading this teaching of Ajhan Lee... to get super-powers ! :spy: :stirthepot: I dont know if you read it yet? )

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/tha ... nmind.html

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Zom
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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Zom » Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:12 pm

And those who teach it, can you share some one's teaching which you apreciate the most ?
Easier to list those who do not :lol:

Well, you can start with Ajahn Brahm, the most famous jhana propagandist 8-)

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Nwad
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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Nwad » Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:16 pm

Zom wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:12 pm
And those who teach it, can you share some one's teaching which you apreciate the most ?
Easier to list those who do not :lol:

Well, you can start with Ajahn Brahm, the most famous jhana propagandist 8-)
Haha! :D :strawman:

Never read his teachings... i will try ) Thanks Zom !

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Zom » Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:20 pm

You can start watching - youtube is filled with him to the brim. To his credit, though he talks too much, certain things he speaks about are indeed useful and wise.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by auto » Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:41 pm

Zom wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:45 pm
Actualy knowing your knowledge of Dhamma and your particular attention to jhana, i would like to know if there is some teaching/text/video that you can share which can explain how to reach it
So far I don't know anyone who genuinely attain it and could sit for a very long time (except one person from Nepal but the situation with him is very controversial by now). There are many who teach, but again, I've never seen and never heard that any of these teachers could do this simple thing: sit for many hours in one posture without any trouble. Let's say: sit at 8 am and get up at 8 pm. Why? Obviously because jhana is a superhuman ability and there aren't many people in the world with superhuman abilities. 8-)

the pain from sitting in a positon what you are not trained for or used to, that isn't faculty of pain.

http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/samy ... 8-040.html

Here, bhikkhus, in a bhikkhu dwelling heedful, ardent and vigorous arises the faculty of pain. He understands thus: 'This faculty of pain has arisen in me, and it is with a cause, with an origin, with a condition, with a ground. That the faculty of pain would arise without a cause, without an origin, without a condition, without a ground: that is impossible.' He understands the faculty of pain, he understands the arising of the faculty of pain, he understands the cessation of the faculty of pain, and he also understands where the arisen faculty of pain ceases totally.


And where does the arisen faculty of pain cease totally? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, detached from sensuality, detached from unwholesome states, having entered in the first jhāna, remains therein, with thoughts, with mental associations, exaltation and well-being engendered by detachment, and it is here that the faculty of pain ceases totally. It is said of this, bhikkhus, 'a bhikkhu having known the cessation of the faculty of pain concentrates the mind with that as an aim.'{1}

that you fight with the pain and no matter of what continue to sit, is a faculty of mental unpleasantness already

Furthermore, bhikkhus, in a bhikkhu dwelling heedful, ardent and vigorous arises the faculty of mental unpleasantness. He understands thus: 'This faculty of mental unpleasantness has arisen in me, and it is with a cause, with an origin, with a condition, with a ground. That the faculty of mental unpleasantness would arise without a cause, without an origin, without a condition, without a ground: that is impossible.' He understands the faculty of mental unpleasantness, he understands the arising of the faculty of mental unpleasantness, he understands the cessation of the faculty of mental unpleasantness, and he also understands where the arisen faculty of mental unpleasantness ceases totally.


And where does the arisen faculty of mental unpleasantness cease totally? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, with the stilling of thoughts and mental associations, having entered in the second jhāna, he remains therein with inner tanquilization, unification of the mind, without thoughts nor mental associations, with exaltation and well-being engendered by concentration, and it is here that the faculty of mental unpleasantness ceases totally.{2} It is said of this, bhikkhus, 'a bhikkhu having known the cessation of the faculty of mental unpleasantness concentrates the mind with that as an aim.'

I have read too somewhere you can breath under water and so, but i think it isn't homo sapiens then.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Zom » Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:59 pm

the pain from sitting in a positon what you are not trained for or used to, that isn't faculty of pain.
It is. Any bodily pain and bodily discomfort, according to SN 48.40 and SN 48.36, is "a faculty of pain". While mental pain is not "a faculty of pain". It is a displeasure faculty.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the pain faculty? Whatever bodily pain there is, whatever bodily discomfort, the painful uncomfortable feeling born of body-contact: this,bhikkhus,iscalledthe pain faculty.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the displeasure faculty? Whatever mental pain there is, whatever mental discomfort, the painful uncomfortable feeling born of mind-contact: this, bhikkhus, is called the displeasure faculty.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by auto » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:05 pm

Zom wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:59 pm
the pain from sitting in a positon what you are not trained for or used to, that isn't faculty of pain.
It is. Any bodily pain and bodily discomfort, according to SN 48.40, is "a faculty of pain".
Even for now i just sit in front of computer and pain arose and cease and arises ceases again..it takes time to build up mental unpleasantness. If i interrupt i just feel good from breaking it or abandoning seat, that feel good isn't the third faculty of pleasure but bodies own.

if you see the cessation of pain then

It is said of this, bhikkhus, 'a bhikkhu having known the cessation of the faculty of pain concentrates the mind with that as an aim.'{1}

it is what mind will focus on, and then there is a faculty of
Furthermore, bhikkhus, in a bhikkhu dwelling heedful, ardent and vigorous arises the faculty of mental unpleasantness.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by auto » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:08 pm

Zom wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:59 pm
the pain from sitting in a positon what you are not trained for or used to, that isn't faculty of pain.
It is. Any bodily pain and bodily discomfort, according to SN 48.40 and SN 48.36, is "a faculty of pain". While mental pain is not "a faculty of pain". It is a displeasure faculty.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the pain faculty? Whatever bodily pain there is, whatever bodily discomfort, the painful uncomfortable feeling born of body-contact: this,bhikkhus,iscalledthe pain faculty.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the displeasure faculty? Whatever mental pain there is, whatever mental discomfort, the painful uncomfortable feeling born of mind-contact: this, bhikkhus, is called the displeasure faculty.
feeling born of body contact.

If i concentrate on a pain of toothache, it is something i can't run away
The pain is frequent it is not stabile it rises and ceases, and it eventually goes mental bacially thoughts of i can't take it anymore, but there is a special thought and the pain goes away for a while, but it comes back again.

Where the feeling comes what takes pain away for a long time like months: When the tooth ache goes away naturally.
But it is actually there rises a special feelign what forces you into a mental position whatever and it takes away the pain probably amongst lot of other things.

So it is anotehr dimension, perhaps the jahna can last months. But you can also move around do all sort of things but the tooth ache is gone long time before it arises again, and actually theer is a moment where you get the feelings right and it never rises again.
Last edited by auto on Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Zom » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:35 pm

Even for now i just sit in front of computer and pain arose and cease and arises ceases again..it takes time to build up mental unpleasantness.
And in the 1st jhana there is no pain at all.
feeling born of body contact.
Any unpleasant or pleasant bodily feeling is "feeling born of body contact". Actually, there are no feelings without a contact.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by auto » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:41 pm

Zom wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:35 pm
Even for now i just sit in front of computer and pain arose and cease and arises ceases again..it takes time to build up mental unpleasantness.
And in the 1st jhana there is no pain at all.
feeling born of body contact.
Any unpleasant or pleasant bodily feeling is "feeling born of body contact". Actually, there are no feelings without a contact.
Ok, but there are feelings what are already there before you saw them born from contact.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Nwad » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:49 pm

Zom wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:35 pm
Any unpleasant or pleasant bodily feeling is "feeling born of body contact". Actually, there are no feelings without a contact.
I have a question about contact,
For exemple if bodily feeling is "painfull", but mind do not interpret this feeling as "pain" and do not suffer from it.
It is steel a painfull feeling? Technicaly there is always a contact, or not?

:juggling:

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:42 pm

auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:52 pm
It says, that you make faculty of concentration as an object to attain concentration.
Na... it doesn't say that. It says what it literally says.
auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:52 pm
but how you do it, it is you have before other faculties.
like:

"And what is the faculty of mindfulness? — ardent, alert & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness.....
The mindfulness faculty is saying the same thing... to let go... to "put aside" greed & distress... for example, from MN 10:
...he lives independent and clings to naught in the world.

MN 10
:alien:
auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:52 pm
If to read it then it looks simple, but you see points like remembering and able to call to mind past doings.
The above is unrelated to jhana; apart from remembering the teachings of the 4 noble truths, which instruct to let go of craving & clinging.
auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:52 pm
Also stages, remaining focused on body, alert and mindful, putting aside greed then remains focused on feelings, then mind then mental qualities..way before the faculty of concentration and make it an object of concentration.
To me, the above translation of "remaining focused" defeats the whole purpose of practise. The Pali "anupassi" obviously does not mean "remains focused". The term "focused" for "passi" appears simply too "active"; given mere "seeing" (passi) sounds like something more passive or automatic. For example, MN 118 appears to clearly say that the quality of perfect mindfulness matures in the state of letting go. Where as the translation "remains focused" sounds very rigid & clingy:

And how are the seven factors for awakening developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination? There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, maturing in letting go. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening... persistence as a factor for awakening... rapture as a factor for awakening... serenity as a factor for awakening... concentration as a factor for awakening... equanimity as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, maturing in letting go.

MN 118
:alien:
auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:52 pm
Once you have concentration and gone through what is there, then there is faculty of discernment where you see arising and passing away..
The sutta does not appear to say this. The sutta is merely describing the different faculties rather than teaching them in any order. Mindfulness is naturally a prerequisite for concentration but the high level of wisdom described in the wisdom faculty can obviously occur in different degrees at different stages.

In short, the sutta is literal. It states:
There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind.

SN 49.10
The role of 'mindfulness' here would be simply remembering to constantly let go.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:56 pm

Nwad wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:04 am
2. more about my own experience - when my mind is concentrated and widely open and pure there is some kind of "radiance" or "duck skin" feeling in whole my body, and when i concentrate on it in one point some kind of pleasant "wave" comes through my body. And if i re-open widely my mind and then concentrate it again, this wave comes through again etc. So question is : is this "radiance" feeling or "duck skin" feeling is a 'pleasure'? And is this "awe" feeling is 'rapture'?
The radiance can be pleasure. I doubt anyone can tell you if a feeling or experience is pleasurable; similar to how only you can know for yourself that the taste of sugar is sweet. If the feeling is rapture, it should be obvious to you the feeling is pleasurable. Regardless, a real pleasurable feeling in meditation does not necessarily mean it is jhana. The Buddhist commentaries describe three levels of concentration that can give rise to different kinds of pleasurable feelings but only the 3rd level of concentration is jhana.
Nwad wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:49 pm
I have a question about contact,
For example if bodily feeling is "painful", but mind do not interpret this feeling as "pain" and do not suffer from it.
It is still a painful feeling?
Yes, it is still a painful feeling. However, not labeling or not obsessing over the painful feelings is called "non-attachment", which is non-suffering, as described below:
When a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to, he directly knows everything; having directly known everything, he fully understands everything; having directly known everything, he fully understood everything, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither pleasant or painful, he abides contemplating (observing) impermanence in those feelings, contemplating (observing) fading away, contemplating (observing) cessation, contemplating (observing) relinquishment (letting go). Contemplating (observing) thus, he does not cling (think about) to anything in the world. When he does not cling (think about), he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books9/Bhik ... _Sutta.htm

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by auto » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:57 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:42 pm
auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:52 pm
It says, that you make faculty of concentration as an object to attain concentration.
Na... it doesn't say that. It says what it literally says.
i also said what it literally says, the same sutta you have is different wording than the one i linked.

auto
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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by auto » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:07 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:42 pm
auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:52 pm
Once you have concentration and gone through what is there, then there is faculty of discernment where you see arising and passing away..
The sutta does not appear to say this. The sutta is merely describing the different faculties rather than teaching them in any order. Mindfulness is naturally a prerequisite for concentration but the high level of wisdom described in the wisdom faculty can obviously occur in different degrees at different stages.

In short, the sutta is literal. It states:
There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind.

SN 49.10
The role of 'mindfulness' here would be simply remembering to constantly let go.
Anapanasati Sutta, if to read it then you notice the order of things too,
but it is backwards in hierarchy. Also breath is backwards and starts with discernment faculty instead of faculty of conviction. In order to do anapanasati you need already concentration, 4th jhana and discernment to see arising and passing away.

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