How to reach the 1st Jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Zom
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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Zom » Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:59 pm

the pain from sitting in a positon what you are not trained for or used to, that isn't faculty of pain.
It is. Any bodily pain and bodily discomfort, according to SN 48.40 and SN 48.36, is "a faculty of pain". While mental pain is not "a faculty of pain". It is a displeasure faculty.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the pain faculty? Whatever bodily pain there is, whatever bodily discomfort, the painful uncomfortable feeling born of body-contact: this,bhikkhus,iscalledthe pain faculty.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the displeasure faculty? Whatever mental pain there is, whatever mental discomfort, the painful uncomfortable feeling born of mind-contact: this, bhikkhus, is called the displeasure faculty.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by auto » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:05 pm

Zom wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:59 pm
the pain from sitting in a positon what you are not trained for or used to, that isn't faculty of pain.
It is. Any bodily pain and bodily discomfort, according to SN 48.40, is "a faculty of pain".
Even for now i just sit in front of computer and pain arose and cease and arises ceases again..it takes time to build up mental unpleasantness. If i interrupt i just feel good from breaking it or abandoning seat, that feel good isn't the third faculty of pleasure but bodies own.

if you see the cessation of pain then

It is said of this, bhikkhus, 'a bhikkhu having known the cessation of the faculty of pain concentrates the mind with that as an aim.'{1}

it is what mind will focus on, and then there is a faculty of
Furthermore, bhikkhus, in a bhikkhu dwelling heedful, ardent and vigorous arises the faculty of mental unpleasantness.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by auto » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:08 pm

Zom wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:59 pm
the pain from sitting in a positon what you are not trained for or used to, that isn't faculty of pain.
It is. Any bodily pain and bodily discomfort, according to SN 48.40 and SN 48.36, is "a faculty of pain". While mental pain is not "a faculty of pain". It is a displeasure faculty.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the pain faculty? Whatever bodily pain there is, whatever bodily discomfort, the painful uncomfortable feeling born of body-contact: this,bhikkhus,iscalledthe pain faculty.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the displeasure faculty? Whatever mental pain there is, whatever mental discomfort, the painful uncomfortable feeling born of mind-contact: this, bhikkhus, is called the displeasure faculty.
feeling born of body contact.

If i concentrate on a pain of toothache, it is something i can't run away
The pain is frequent it is not stabile it rises and ceases, and it eventually goes mental bacially thoughts of i can't take it anymore, but there is a special thought and the pain goes away for a while, but it comes back again.

Where the feeling comes what takes pain away for a long time like months: When the tooth ache goes away naturally.
But it is actually there rises a special feelign what forces you into a mental position whatever and it takes away the pain probably amongst lot of other things.

So it is anotehr dimension, perhaps the jahna can last months. But you can also move around do all sort of things but the tooth ache is gone long time before it arises again, and actually theer is a moment where you get the feelings right and it never rises again.
Last edited by auto on Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Zom » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:35 pm

Even for now i just sit in front of computer and pain arose and cease and arises ceases again..it takes time to build up mental unpleasantness.
And in the 1st jhana there is no pain at all.
feeling born of body contact.
Any unpleasant or pleasant bodily feeling is "feeling born of body contact". Actually, there are no feelings without a contact.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by auto » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:41 pm

Zom wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:35 pm
Even for now i just sit in front of computer and pain arose and cease and arises ceases again..it takes time to build up mental unpleasantness.
And in the 1st jhana there is no pain at all.
feeling born of body contact.
Any unpleasant or pleasant bodily feeling is "feeling born of body contact". Actually, there are no feelings without a contact.
Ok, but there are feelings what are already there before you saw them born from contact.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Nwad » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:49 pm

Zom wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:35 pm
Any unpleasant or pleasant bodily feeling is "feeling born of body contact". Actually, there are no feelings without a contact.
I have a question about contact,
For exemple if bodily feeling is "painfull", but mind do not interpret this feeling as "pain" and do not suffer from it.
It is steel a painfull feeling? Technicaly there is always a contact, or not?

:juggling:

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:42 pm

auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:52 pm
It says, that you make faculty of concentration as an object to attain concentration.
Na... it doesn't say that. It says what it literally says.
auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:52 pm
but how you do it, it is you have before other faculties.
like:

"And what is the faculty of mindfulness? — ardent, alert & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness.....
The mindfulness faculty is saying the same thing... to let go... to "put aside" greed & distress... for example, from MN 10:
...he lives independent and clings to naught in the world.

MN 10
:alien:
auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:52 pm
If to read it then it looks simple, but you see points like remembering and able to call to mind past doings.
The above is unrelated to jhana; apart from remembering the teachings of the 4 noble truths, which instruct to let go of craving & clinging.
auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:52 pm
Also stages, remaining focused on body, alert and mindful, putting aside greed then remains focused on feelings, then mind then mental qualities..way before the faculty of concentration and make it an object of concentration.
To me, the above translation of "remaining focused" defeats the whole purpose of practise. The Pali "anupassi" obviously does not mean "remains focused". The term "focused" for "passi" appears simply too "active"; given mere "seeing" (passi) sounds like something more passive or automatic. For example, MN 118 appears to clearly say that the quality of perfect mindfulness matures in the state of letting go. Where as the translation "remains focused" sounds very rigid & clingy:

And how are the seven factors for awakening developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination? There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, maturing in letting go. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening... persistence as a factor for awakening... rapture as a factor for awakening... serenity as a factor for awakening... concentration as a factor for awakening... equanimity as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, maturing in letting go.

MN 118
:alien:
auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:52 pm
Once you have concentration and gone through what is there, then there is faculty of discernment where you see arising and passing away..
The sutta does not appear to say this. The sutta is merely describing the different faculties rather than teaching them in any order. Mindfulness is naturally a prerequisite for concentration but the high level of wisdom described in the wisdom faculty can obviously occur in different degrees at different stages.

In short, the sutta is literal. It states:
There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind.

SN 49.10
The role of 'mindfulness' here would be simply remembering to constantly let go.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:56 pm

Nwad wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:04 am
2. more about my own experience - when my mind is concentrated and widely open and pure there is some kind of "radiance" or "duck skin" feeling in whole my body, and when i concentrate on it in one point some kind of pleasant "wave" comes through my body. And if i re-open widely my mind and then concentrate it again, this wave comes through again etc. So question is : is this "radiance" feeling or "duck skin" feeling is a 'pleasure'? And is this "awe" feeling is 'rapture'?
The radiance can be pleasure. I doubt anyone can tell you if a feeling or experience is pleasurable; similar to how only you can know for yourself that the taste of sugar is sweet. If the feeling is rapture, it should be obvious to you the feeling is pleasurable. Regardless, a real pleasurable feeling in meditation does not necessarily mean it is jhana. The Buddhist commentaries describe three levels of concentration that can give rise to different kinds of pleasurable feelings but only the 3rd level of concentration is jhana.
Nwad wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:49 pm
I have a question about contact,
For example if bodily feeling is "painful", but mind do not interpret this feeling as "pain" and do not suffer from it.
It is still a painful feeling?
Yes, it is still a painful feeling. However, not labeling or not obsessing over the painful feelings is called "non-attachment", which is non-suffering, as described below:
When a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to, he directly knows everything; having directly known everything, he fully understands everything; having directly known everything, he fully understood everything, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither pleasant or painful, he abides contemplating (observing) impermanence in those feelings, contemplating (observing) fading away, contemplating (observing) cessation, contemplating (observing) relinquishment (letting go). Contemplating (observing) thus, he does not cling (think about) to anything in the world. When he does not cling (think about), he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books9/Bhik ... _Sutta.htm

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by auto » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:57 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:42 pm
auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:52 pm
It says, that you make faculty of concentration as an object to attain concentration.
Na... it doesn't say that. It says what it literally says.
i also said what it literally says, the same sutta you have is different wording than the one i linked.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by auto » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:07 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:42 pm
auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:52 pm
Once you have concentration and gone through what is there, then there is faculty of discernment where you see arising and passing away..
The sutta does not appear to say this. The sutta is merely describing the different faculties rather than teaching them in any order. Mindfulness is naturally a prerequisite for concentration but the high level of wisdom described in the wisdom faculty can obviously occur in different degrees at different stages.

In short, the sutta is literal. It states:
There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind.

SN 49.10
The role of 'mindfulness' here would be simply remembering to constantly let go.
Anapanasati Sutta, if to read it then you notice the order of things too,
but it is backwards in hierarchy. Also breath is backwards and starts with discernment faculty instead of faculty of conviction. In order to do anapanasati you need already concentration, 4th jhana and discernment to see arising and passing away.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Zom » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:36 pm

For exemple if bodily feeling is "painfull", but mind do not interpret this feeling as "pain" and do not suffer from it.
It is steel a painfull feeling? Technicaly there is always a contact, or not?
This is not possible. Pain is pain, there is no way not to feel it just because you want to.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:43 am

auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:57 pm
i also said what it literally says, the same sutta you have is different wording than the one i linked.
its the same sutta... this sutta does not say the idea you wrote, namely: "you make faculty of concentration as an object to attain concentration". The sutta literally says: "Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako vos­saggā­rammaṇaṃ karitvā labhati samādhiṃ, labhati cittassa ekaggataṃ". The word "vossagga" means to: "letting go; given up; relaxaton; surrender; relinquishment", just as it is found in MN 118, which I posted, as follows:
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sati­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti vivekanissitaṃ virāganissitaṃ nirodha­nissitaṃ vos­sagga­pari­ṇāmiṃ. Dhamma­vicaya­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti … pe … vīriya­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti … pīti­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti … passad­dhi­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti … samā­dhi­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti … upekkhā­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti vivekanissitaṃ virāganissitaṃ nirodha­nissitaṃ vos­sagga­pari­ṇāmiṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/pi/mn118
The words vos­saggā­rammaṇaṃ either mean "letting go as the object" or "having relinquished sense objects". However, given "vossagga" appears to be a "noun" rather than a "verb" (vossajati), is appears the translation by Thanissaro & Bodhi which say "vossagga" is the object is accurate.
auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:07 pm
Anapanasati Sutta, if to read it then you notice the order of things too, but it is backwards in hierarchy. Also breath is backwards and starts with discernment faculty instead of faculty of conviction. In order to do anapanasati you need already concentration, 4th jhana and discernment to see arising and passing away.
Arising & passing away (impermanence) is not mentioned in the Anapanasati Sutta until the 13th stage (even though it can obviously be discerned in different degrees prior to the 13th stage). Also, since the in & out breathing is discerned in every stage of Anapanasati, it appears Anapanasati is not related to jhana because awareness of breathing is not mentioned as a factor of any jhana in the suttas. In fact, SN 36.11 states the breathing completely ceases in the 4th jhana. If the breathing ceases in the 4th jhana, how can the 4th jhana be used for anapanasati?
When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has been stilled.

SN 36.11 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:23 am

auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:52 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:33 am
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:53 pm
And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making letting go the meditation object, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana...
The letting go seems to be the key here. Letting go of what? All views, which are different forms of knowledge, knowing. Thinking begins to abate. The state of not-knowing begins with the comfort and rapture that automatically are present when thinking, conceptuality, are let go of. This is a state of not-knowing. Some call it a communion, some call it being present, some call it a state of harmony, 4th jhana. For me, it has always been a via negativa, a letting go and an entering into a state of not-knowing. It is without views and without association with a personality. It is like the deepest prayer imaginable.
to be more punctuate.
open the link to the SN 48.10 and read the quote

"And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind....

It says, that you make faculty of concentration as an object to attain concentration.

but how you do it, it is you have before other faculties.
like:

"And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. He remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness.

If to read it then it looks simple, but you see points like remembering and able to call to mind past doings. Also stages, remaining focused on body, alert and mindful, putting aside greed then remains focused on feelings, then mind then mental qualities..way before the faculty of concentration and make it an object of concentration.
Once you have concentration and gone through what is there, then there is faculty of discernment where you see arising and passing away..

"And what is the faculty of discernment? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. He discerns, as it has come to be: 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the faculty of discernment.
For me, it is a simple process of letting go and being present. Deeply relaxing, your feeling takes over. When this happens, your thinking begins to dissipate into what I call not-knowing. Not-knowing allows the energies of the body to be felt more profoundly so there is a blissful state that is experienced. Your attention is both introverted and present. The conceptual stops. This puts you into a different state where thought is not the center. There is a knowingness in not-knowing, a state of balance. It has nothing to do with reasoning and analysis.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by auto » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:27 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:43 am
auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:57 pm
i also said what it literally says, the same sutta you have is different wording than the one i linked.
its the same sutta... this sutta does not say the idea you wrote, namely: "you make faculty of concentration as an object to attain concentration". The sutta literally says: "Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako vos­saggā­rammaṇaṃ karitvā labhati samādhiṃ, labhati cittassa ekaggataṃ". The word "vossagga" means to: "letting go; given up; relaxaton; surrender; relinquishment", just as it is found in MN 118, which I posted, as follows:
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sati­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti vivekanissitaṃ virāganissitaṃ nirodha­nissitaṃ vos­sagga­pari­ṇāmiṃ. Dhamma­vicaya­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti … pe … vīriya­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti … pīti­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti … passad­dhi­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti … samā­dhi­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti … upekkhā­sam­boj­jhaṅ­gaṃ bhāveti vivekanissitaṃ virāganissitaṃ nirodha­nissitaṃ vos­sagga­pari­ṇāmiṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/pi/mn118
The words vos­saggā­rammaṇaṃ either mean "letting go as the object" or "having relinquished sense objects". However, given "vossagga" appears to be a "noun" rather than a "verb" (vossajati), is appears the translation by Thanissaro & Bodhi which say "vossagga" is the object is accurate.
auto wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:07 pm
Anapanasati Sutta, if to read it then you notice the order of things too, but it is backwards in hierarchy. Also breath is backwards and starts with discernment faculty instead of faculty of conviction. In order to do anapanasati you need already concentration, 4th jhana and discernment to see arising and passing away.
Arising & passing away (impermanence) is not mentioned in the Anapanasati Sutta until the 13th stage (even though it can obviously be discerned in different degrees prior to the 13th stage). Also, since the in & out breathing is discerned in every stage of Anapanasati, it appears Anapanasati is not related to jhana because awareness of breathing is not mentioned as a factor of any jhana in the suttas. In fact, SN 36.11 states the breathing completely ceases in the 4th jhana. If the breathing ceases in the 4th jhana, how can the 4th jhana be used for anapanasati?
When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has been stilled.

SN 36.11 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
But it is stilling the breath, not stopping the breath.
--
I meant the beginning story of anapanasati sutta ending before the detailed descriptions of mindfulness of breathing.
--
and the faculty of concentration, could mean backward concentration on itself. It also fulfill whatever letting go processes because it is turning away from world, senses inward.

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Re: How to reach the 1st Jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:34 am

auto wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:27 am
When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has been stilled.

SN 36.11 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
But it is stilling the breath, not stopping the breath.
The essential matter appears to be, based in the descriptions in the suttas, there is no awareness/experience of breathing in jhana, which is contrary to Anapanasati. If the breathing is stilled; given the breathing does not move; the breathing obviously cannot be discerned or felt, which is contrary to Anapanasati. This would appear why breathing is never mentioned as a factor of jhana; because breathing would appear to become so subtle, it cannot be felt; even in the 1st jhana; because all that can be felt is the feelings of rapture, happiness & equanimity. Where as in Anapanasati, the breathing is felt together with rapture.
He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.'

MN 118
This seems to support the Commentary view about three levels of concentration.
In concentration one distinguishes 3 grades of intensity:

1 'Preparatory concentration' parikamma-samādhi existing at the beginning of the mental exercise.

2 'Neighbourhood concentration' upacāra-samādhi i.e. concentration 'approaching' but not yet attaining the 1st absorption jhāna, which in certain mental exercises is marked by the appearance of the so-called 'counter-image' patibhāga-nimitta.

3 'Attainment concentration' appanā-samādhi i.e. that concentration which is present during the absorptions [jhāna].

https://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Samadhi

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