bodom wrote: Garrib wrote: bodom wrote:
If that were so then the Buddha's first two teachers who mastered and instructed him in the highest immaterial jhanas would have realized nibbana.
Of course, there is some controversy over whether Alara Kalama and Udakka Ramaputta were actually practicing 'Jhana' meditation as taught by the Buddha - my understanding is that it is made clear in the Suttas that their practices culminated in a certain immaterial absorption. However, when the Buddha is sitting under the Bodhi tree having made the determination to gain perfect liberation, his mind goes back to when he obtained the first Jhana as a child - this becomes his path for developing Samma Samadhi, not the more recent and extensive experience he had with immaterial absorptions under those two teachers. Something to consider!
Fair enough. My point though was that Jhana by itself does not lead to insight. It needs to be practiced with the other seven path factors. Most importantly right view.
thanks I fond your exchange interesting. As far as i understood
- arupas jhanas are found only in certain suttas (sometimes we only have rupas jhanas). This lead some to think arupas jhanas were added "lately". For example Shankman does provide some input in this topic regarding arupas jhanas in suttas vs commentaries (but he does not work on the "lately added" debate). The fact Gautama remembers youth Jhana and does not remember his masters, may be on the side, Arupas Jhanas were not part of first Suttas.
on the opposite site, Wynne argues, Buddha *did* really practice arupas jhanas. He writes, there is no reason to think Alara Kalama and Udakka Ramaputta were not historical. So according to Wynne, they are historical, and indeed practiced absorbtions, and taught to Buddha.
- one can argue the noble truth is merely Samadhi, because the "path leading to cessation of suffereng" is the noble path, with 8 factors, *leading to* the last one, samadhi. In this *point of view* right view is merely a start to begin practice. Then the end of the practice is Samadhi, then one realize he has attained Samadhi, which is the end of suffereing.
On a very different point of view, right view is not the beginning but rather the end of the path : after samadhi, one is to realize right view.
Of course from these debates we cannot extract much. my 2 cents is, there is no indication Alara Kalama and Udakka Ramaputta did teach Mindfulness (during daily activities and so on). They barely taught one sitting practice.
While Jhana could have more or less existed pre-Buddhism, i think there was no teaching to constantly practice mindfulness here and there, everytime.
Also, while Buddhists do teach different things; they all agree about mindfulness. While there are so many debates regarding canon or commentaries, there is no debate regarding mindfulness.
So, i would say if there is one central point, i would keep mindfulness. This is not the most thrilling theory but oh, well at least this does not hurt =)