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Re: Is newly born child in second Jhana?

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:16 am
by SarathW
Thank you Binocular.
The simile of gradual training is very clear. It is clearly shown in in mn 107.

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so, too, good Gotama, for these brahmans there can be seen a gradual training, a gradual doing, a gradual practice, that is to say in the study [of the Vedas];[2] so too, good Gotama, for these archers there can be seen a gradual... practice, that is to say in archery; so too, good Gotama, for us whose livelihood is calculation[3] there can be seen a gradual training, a gradual practice, that is to say in accountancy. For when we get a pupil, good Gotama, we first of all make him calculate: 'One one, two twos, three threes, four fours, five fives, six sixes, seven sevens, eight eights, nine nines, ten tens,' and we, good Gotama, also make him calculate a hundred. Is it not possible, good Gotama, to lay down a similar gradual training, gradual doing, gradual practice in respect of this dhamma and discipline?"

Re: Is newly born child in second Jhana?

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:21 am
by SarathW
Why bother to experience Jhana?
My understanding is it is for the pleasant abiding here and now. Another reason for attaining super normal powers and seen the thing as they are.

The question is why we can't have those benefit in wrong concentration?

Re: Is newly born child in second Jhana?

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:39 am
by binocular
SarathW wrote:The question is why we can't have those benefit in wrong concentration?
It appears that the Universe functions by some principles and that not just anything is possible in this Universe, but only some things.

Re: Is newly born child in second Jhana?

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:30 pm
by santa100
SarathW wrote:Why bother to experience Jhana?
My understanding is it is for the pleasant abiding here and now. Another reason for attaining super normal powers and seen the thing as they are.

The question is why we can't have those benefit in wrong concentration?
Certain level of jhana (regardless of the various interpretations of its meaning) is required for progress on the Path because it's the 8th factor in the Noble Eightfold Path, Right Concentration.

For the 2nd question, depends on the definition of "benefit". Obviously one can't have right benefit with wrong concentration.

Re: Is newly born child in second Jhana?

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:36 am
by pegembara
The gradual steps to attaining right stillness. It all starts from being "pure".
"For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no need for an act of will, 'May freedom from remorse arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that freedom from remorse arises in a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue.

"For a person free from remorse, there is no need for an act of will, 'May joy arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that joy arises in a person free from remorse.

"For a joyful person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May rapture arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that rapture arises in a joyful person.

"For a rapturous person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May my body be serene.' It is in the nature of things that a rapturous person grows serene in body.

"For a person serene in body, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I experience pleasure.' It is in the nature of things that a person serene in body experiences pleasure.

"For a person experiencing pleasure, there is no need for an act of will, 'May my mind grow concentrated.' It is in the nature of things that the mind of a person experiencing pleasure grows concentrated.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Re: Is newly born child in second Jhana?

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:51 am
by SarathW
Obviously one can't have right benefit with wrong concentration.
Can I say that Mara has supernormal powers but he uses them for unwholesome action?