Is newly born child in second Jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
SarathW
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Is newly born child in second Jhana?

Post by SarathW » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:59 pm

Considering the fact that a newly born child does not have thoughts (Vitakka and Vicara), I just wondered whether s/he is in second Jhana.
Newly born child will only have the perception and feeling.
If you disagree, what is the reason?

Related link:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 3498&hilit
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Nicolas
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Re: Is newly born child in second Jhana?

Post by Nicolas » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:15 pm

Why do you think newborns have no thoughts? Even if they didn't, why do you think they'd be in second jhana?
I imagine they would be assailed and confused by their sense inputs (depending on their past kamma), until a pleasant feeling appeases them temporarily.

SarathW
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Re: Is newly born child in second Jhana?

Post by SarathW » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:17 pm

Why do you think newborns have no thoughts?
The way I understand the newly born babies do not have thoughts.
They have perception and feeling only.
The thoughts start to develop latter in life.
To think you have to have past experiences.
If you are in the present moment you are considered to have no thoughts.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Phena
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Re: Is newly born child in second Jhana?

Post by Phena » Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:57 am

SarathW wrote:Considering the fact that a newly born child does not have thoughts (Vitakka and Vicara), I just wondered whether s/he is in second Jhana.
Newly born child will only have the perception and feeling.
If you disagree, what is the reason?

Related link:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 3498&hilit
Yes, but do they have piti, sukkha, and ekaggata?

Also, are you sure they would have perception at this stage, as perception is defined as recognition isn't it?

SarathW
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Re: Is newly born child in second Jhana?

Post by SarathW » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:19 am

are you sure they would have perception at this stage]
Thanks Phena.
We had some discussion on this topic in the past.

============
Do newly born children have perception (Sanna)?


http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 842&hilit=
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Phena
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Re: Is newly born child in second Jhana?

Post by Phena » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:44 am

SarathW wrote:Thanks Phena.
We had some discussion on this topic in the past.

============
Do newly born children have perception (Sanna)?


http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 842&hilit=
Giving this some further thought, I think feeling would initially be more developed (particularly pleasant and unpleasant) at this stage than perception which would develop through memory/recognition and then later attaching a label through the development of language. This is perhaps in accord the quote from MN 18: "What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies."

SarathW
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Re: Is newly born child in second Jhana?

Post by SarathW » Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:17 am

Yes, but do they have piti, sukkha, and ekaggata?
I think a newly born child has pithi (non-aversion) and Sukkha (free from unrest).
Ekagata means the unification of the mind and the five senses. (my preferred interpretation)
So I would say the newly born child possess Ekagata.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

binocular
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Re: Is newly born child in second Jhana?

Post by binocular » Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:23 am

/.../
Then Pañcakanga went to Uggahamana and, on arrival, greeted him courteously. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat down to one side. As he was sitting there, Uggahamana said to him, "I describe an individual endowed with four qualities as being consummate in what is skillful, foremost in what is skillful, an invincible contemplative attained to the highest attainments. Which four? There is the case where he does no evil action with his body, speaks no evil speech, resolves on no evil resolve, and maintains himself with no evil means of livelihood. An individual endowed with these four qualities I describe as being consummate in what is skillful, foremost in what is skillful, an invincible contemplative attained to the highest attainments."

Then Pañcakanga neither delighted in Uggahamana's words nor did he scorn them. Expressing neither delight nor scorn, he got up from his seat & left, thinking, "I will learn the meaning of this statement in the Blessed One's presence."

Then he went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, after bowing down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he told the Blessed One the entire conversation he had had with Uggahamana.

When this was said, the Blessed One said to Pañcakanga: "In that case, carpenter, then according to Uggahamana's words a stupid baby boy, lying on its back, is consummate in what is skillful, foremost in what is skillful, an invincible contemplative attained to the highest attainments. For even the thought 'body' does not occur to a stupid baby boy lying on its back, so from where would it do any evil action with its body, aside from a little kicking? Even the thought 'speech' does not occur to it, so from where would it speak any evil speech, aside from a little crying? Even the thought 'resolve' does not occur to it, so from where would it resolve on any evil resolve, aside from a little bad temper? Even the thought 'livelihood' does not occur to it, so from where would it maintain itself with any evil means of livelihood, aside from its mother's milk? So, according to Uggahamana's words, a stupid baby boy, lying on its back is consummate in what is skillful, foremost in what is skillful, an invincible contemplative attained to the highest attainments.

"If an individual is endowed with these four qualities, I do not describe him as consummate in what is skillful, foremost in what is skillful, an invincible contemplative attained to the highest attainments. Rather, he stands on the same level as a stupid baby boy lying on its back. Which four? There is the case where he does no evil action with his body, speaks no evil speech, resolves on no evil resolve, and maintains himself with no evil means of livelihood. If an individual is endowed with these four qualities, I do not describe him as consummate in what is skillful, foremost in what is skillful, an invincible contemplative attained to the highest attainments. Rather, he stands on the same level as a stupid baby boy lying on its back.

"An individual endowed with ten qualities is one whom I describe as being consummate in what is skillful, foremost in what is skillful, an invincible contemplative attained to the highest attainments. With regard to that point, one should know that 'These are unskillful habits,' I say. With regard to that point, one should know that 'That is the cause of unskillful habits'...'Here unskillful habits cease without trace'...'This sort of practice is the practice leading to the cessation of unskillful habits,' I say.

/.../
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

SarathW
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Re: Is newly born child in second Jhana?

Post by SarathW » Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:47 am

Thank you Binocular.
I am not talking about the highest attainment.
I am just talking about the second Jhana.
Are you saying only a person who endowed with ten qualities (the knowledge of four noble truths) can attain second Jhana?

Please also consider Buddha (prince Siddhartha) experienced Jhana when he was a little child.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

binocular
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Re: Is newly born child in second Jhana?

Post by binocular » Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:05 am

I am very skeptical about the idea that children are somehow innately happy or have some level of wisdom (without requiring any special practice (in this lifetime)) and that it is life is society that somehow messes them up and then they become the suffering, troubled adults as we usually know.

Why would a newborn by default be in second jhana, while most adults apparently aren't capable of it? If people are in the second jhana as babies, then what happens to them that they deteriorate as they grow up?
SarathW wrote:I think a newly born child has pithi (non-aversion) and Sukkha (free from unrest).
Newborns tend to cry a lot.
At birth, babies usually cry. This doesn't look like non-aversion or freedom from unrest.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

SarathW
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Re: Is newly born child in second Jhana?

Post by SarathW » Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:01 pm

What I am really trying to understand here is to see what the main ingredient required to qualify for second Jhana based on Sutta formula.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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mikenz66
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Re: Is newly born child in second Jhana?

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:35 am

SarathW wrote:What I am really trying to understand here is to see what the main ingredient required to qualify for second Jhana based on Sutta formula.
You seem to be assuming that those few line define jhana. I'm not sure that's the right approach. I would tend to summarise the gradual training suttas, such as MN 27 or MN 107 as saying:

"Spend some months (or years) working on virtue, wakefulness, mindfulness, eliminating the hindrances. Then you should be able to get into these deeply unified jhana states. Here are a few characteristics that allow to you identify the different levels (jhanas 1-4)..."

He doesn't say: "Sit down and put your mind in a state where a, b, c are present and x, y, z are absent. Congratulations! You're in Nth jhana!"

You quoted Bhante Sujato making exactly this point over here:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=28091
Sujato wrote:No. Jhana is an exalted state of mind that emerges from a specific spiritual training. It's not mere absence of thought; if that was the case, a rock would be in second jhana.
In summary, I don't think there is a "main ingredient".

:anjali:
Mike

SarathW
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Re: Is newly born child in second Jhana?

Post by SarathW » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:49 am

Thank you Mike.
So if a man without morality, sense control and moderation in eating we definitely can say that he is not able to attain Jhana?

Again my point is that there are some people going to a ten day Vipassana course and expect to experience Jhana.
It seems impossible.

Or can we say people who attain concentration without gradual training is experiencing wrong Jhana?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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mikenz66
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Re: Is newly born child in second Jhana?

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:06 am

I don't think it's a useful question. As I explained, there are a sequence of instructions for such development. Whether some completely different approach is possible is a matter of speculation. However, my impression is that without the calm and lack of distracting desires and worries that comes from the development of sila, mindfulness, etc, developing jhana would be very difficult. (Of course, there is also some disagreement on exactly what jhana is, but I think even the "light" jhanas described by some western teachers would be hard to attain without such development.)

:anjali:
Mike

binocular
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Re: Is newly born child in second Jhana?

Post by binocular » Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:53 am

Here's the sister thread to this one: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=28091

SarathW wrote:Again my point is that there are some people going to a ten day Vipassana course and expect to experience Jhana.
People expect all kinds of things, and they had followed all kinds of thought processes to develop those expectations. Some of those expectations seem unrealistic.
Or can we say people who attain concentration without gradual training is experiencing wrong Jhana?
A gradual training is possibly always there when there's concentration. The question is, a gradual training in what has this training been?
For example, a butcher or a maker of poison both have concentration, and they have trained for it gradually, but it cannot be said that theirs is the noble right concentration.
"Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions."

— MN 117
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... a-samadhi/
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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