Samatha and Anatta

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
CecilN
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Re: Samatha and Anatta

Post by CecilN »

Twilight wrote:It sounds like you are trying to do it without doing any sutta study. All who ever achieved stream entry did it after hearing and contemplating a discourse of the Buddha. Can you show me one single sutta where somebody achieved it using another method ? :)
Stream-entry has three factors, one being total conviction (faith) in the path/dhamma. Total conviction can only occur when the liberation (fruit) of not-self or non-attachment has been tasted.

As for your view about stream-entry & the suttas, it is: :rofl:
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Twilight
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Re: Samatha and Anatta

Post by Twilight »

CecilN wrote:
Twilight wrote:It sounds like you are trying to do it without doing any sutta study. All who ever achieved stream entry did it after hearing and contemplating a discourse of the Buddha. Can you show me one single sutta where somebody achieved it using another method ? :)
Stream-entry has three factors, one being total conviction (faith) in the path/dhamma. Total conviction can only occur when the liberation (fruit) of not-self or non-attachment has been tasted.

As for your view about reading the suttas, it is: :rofl:
Ok, then show me one single sutta about achieving stream entry through another method than hearing a discourse. One single one.

Also how do you explain that those who achieved stream entry in the suttas describe it as : "he taught me aggregates, sense bases, elements etc"
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link
CecilN
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Re: Samatha and Anatta

Post by CecilN »

Twilight wrote:Ok, then show me one single sutta about achieving stream entry through another method than hearing a discourse. One single one.
This is really off-topic because the topic is about samadhi & anatta.

However, to refute your point of view, in the 1st sutta sermon (SN 56.11), five listeners heard the sermon but only one attained stream-entry. This was probably because it was the mind of the one that was free from hindrances, i.e., had some samadhi.

MN 56 for example, stream-entry occurred only after Upali had samadhi:
Then the Blessed One discoursed to him a graduated sermon, that is to say, he spoke on the subjects of liberality, virtue, the heavens, on the evil consequences, the vanity and the depravity of sensual pleasures, and on the advantages of renunciation.

When the Blessed One perceived that the mind of Upāli, the householder, was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated and lucid, then he revealed to him that exalted doctrine of the Buddhas, viz. Suffering, its Cause, its Ceasing and the Path.

Just as a clean cloth, free from stain, would take the dye perfectly, even so, to Upāli, the householder, whilst seated in that place, there arose (in him) the spotless, stainless vision of Truth. He knew: Whatsoever has causally arisen must inevitably pass utterly away.’

Then Upāli, the householder, having thus, in the Dispensation of the Exalted One seen the Truth; attained to the Truth; comprehended the Truth, penetrated the Truth, overcome doubt; cast off uncertainty and gained full confidence without dependence on another
:focus:
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Twilight
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Re: Samatha and Anatta

Post by Twilight »

How can you possibly use that sutta to make your point ????? I mean this is from your quote:
Then the Blessed One discoursed to him a graduated sermon, that is to say, he spoke on the subjects of liberality, virtue, the heavens, on the evil consequences, the vanity and the depravity of sensual pleasures, and on the advantages of renunciation.

When the Blessed One perceived that the mind of Upāli, the householder, was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated and lucid, then he revealed to him that exalted doctrine of the Buddhas, viz. Suffering, its Cause, its Ceasing and the Path.

Just as a clean cloth, free from stain, would take the dye perfectly, even so, to Upāli, the householder, whilst seated in that place, there arose (in him) the spotless, stainless vision of Truth. He knew: Whatsoever has causally arisen must inevitably pass utterly away.’
He first spoke about heavens and etc. witch of course can not make one become a stream enterer. Then he revealed to him the subtle doctrine, the fundamental doctrine that is today preserved in the SN volume of the Pali Canon. All those suttas that end in "after hearing this discourse, 20 bhikkhus attained stream entry" are there.

I have asked you for a sutta where someone achieves stream entry through another method than hearing a discourse on the fundamental doctrine. And you provide me a sutta where one achieves stream entry precisely by hearing a discourse on the fundamental doctrine. :juggling:
This was probably because it was the mind of the one that was free from hindrances, i.e., had some samadhi.
This is because he was smarter or payed proper attention. "There are some who achieve stream entry through just hearing a discourse in brief, some that require to hear the teaching in detail. Some that require hearing the teaching in detail and further contemplation about it. etc. "
Last edited by Twilight on Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link
CecilN
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Re: Samatha and Anatta

Post by CecilN »

Twilight wrote:I have asked you for a sutta where someone achieves stream entry through another method than hearing a discourse on the fundamental doctrine. And you provide me a sutta where one achieves stream entry precisely by hearing a discourse on the fundamental doctrine.
No. I provided a discourse that shows having samadhi/samatha is a prerequisite to hearing the teachings clearly to result in stream-entry:
When the Blessed One perceived that the mind of Upāli, the householder, was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated and lucid, .... MN 56
I provided SN 56.11, that shows hearing the teachings alone is not sufficient for stream-entry.
Last edited by CecilN on Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Twilight
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Re: Samatha and Anatta

Post by Twilight »

When the Blessed One perceived that the mind of Upāli, the householder, was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated and lucid, .... MN 56
When hearing a complicated teaching such as the doctrine of dependent origination or a teaching on how a car engine works, the mind has to be in a good state to understand it. You can't do it drunk or after having a meal or while been sleepy etc. And it also depends on how smart the person is.

When you were in school, did you require hours of samadhi to understand what was been taught over there ? Is that what you did to understand complicated material, or did you use hours of contemplation like all us normal people ?
Last edited by Twilight on Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link
CecilN
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Re: Samatha and Anatta

Post by CecilN »

Twilight wrote:When hearing a complicated teaching such as the doctrine of dependent origination or a teaching on how a car engine works, the mind has to be in a good state to understand it. You can't do it drunk or after having a meal or while been sleepy etc.
Yes. The mind must have some samadhi & samatha.

As for the doctrine of dependent origination, please explain how thinking it is about past, present & future lives will lead to the realisation of anatta & sunnata? Thanks

:popcorn:
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Twilight
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Re: Samatha and Anatta

Post by Twilight »

As for the doctrine of dependent origination, please explain how thinking it is about past, present & future lives will lead to the realisation of anatta & sunnata? Thanks
That will of course lead to zero realization of no self existing. The way to understand it is through understanding how the 5 aggregates work and interact with each other. Witch require more than 1 single sutta out of 2000pag of SN taken out of context by Buddhadasa to make a case that Buddha never taught rebirth.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link
CecilN
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Re: Samatha and Anatta

Post by CecilN »

Twilight wrote:That will of course lead to zero realization of no self existing. The way to understand it is through understanding how the 5 aggregates work and interact with each other. Witch require more than 1 single sutta out of 2000pag of SN taken out of context by Buddhadasa to make a case that Buddha never taught rebirth.
This reply is insufficient. The Buddha did not debate like this.
pyluyten
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Re: Samatha and Anatta

Post by pyluyten »

Ok, then show me one single sutta about achieving stream entry through another method than hearing a discourse. One single one.
Buddha's themselves do.
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srivijaya
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Re: Samatha and Anatta

Post by srivijaya »

Twilight wrote:
Please feel free to correct it.
Realization about non existence of a self is done through contemplating suttas dealing with dependent origination, such as most suttas from SN. It is important to pay special attention to those suttas that end up with "after hearing this discourses, 20 bhikkhus attained stream entry". A lot of reading and contemplation is required to understand it. And this is how insight arises.
I agree that reading suttas is important and I have read my fair share over the years. One can gain a good intellectual understanding of the dhamma by doing so, which is valuable. Sooner or later though one has to apply "right concentration". This is the development of Jhana, without which the actual insight will not arise.
"And what has the Blessed One expounded?"

"I have expounded that, 'This is stress'... 'This is the origination of stress'... 'This is the cessation of stress'... 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'
But what is this "stress"? A worldly person understands stress, as they are frequently stressed. Then they engage in a stress-busting pastime and feel chilled out, so they conclude, sometimes I'm subject to stress - but sometimes I'm chilled and life's good.

This is the grossest manifestation of stress and when tranquility is achieved (in some measure) a different, deeper kind of stress is revealed (which we didn't even know about). There is some disagreement about whether thought is abandoned in 1st Jhana - so I don't wish to open that can of worms - but at some point awareness detaches from the stream of thought and we see it as no longer belonging to us (anatta) in a limited way.

Once thought is stilled, awareness goes to work to discover deeper stress, which is subsequently relinquished etc.

The problem with your assertion about thinking about the suttas is that this kind of thought and understanding is very superficial and is abandoned early on. It reminds me of some Mahayana schools who assert that a solid intellectual grasp of the Two Truths doctrine is essential for enlightenment. It's just more 'head stuff'. Same thing, the belief that intellectually acquired material will be our salvation.

Why do folks think this? Easy - all our life has been a process of acquisition, without which we would be nowhere. We rely on it and depend on it - hopefully acquiring the 'right' stuff as opposed to the wrong stuff. But these instructions are to be applied.

Right concentration is a challenge because for the first time on our journey, it's about 'relinquishment', abandoning stuff and going deeper. There is no acquisition here - there is only release. Release of what? Stress.
But those who discern stress, what brings stress into play, & where it totally stops, without trace; who discern the path, the way to the stilling of stress: consummate in their awareness-release & discernment-release, capable of making an end, they aren't headed to birth & aging.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:anjali:
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mikenz66
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Re: Samatha and Anatta

Post by mikenz66 »

Twilight wrote: If such ideas sound strange, then you should know that Bhikkhu Bhodi who translated the canon "does not meditate". He has not arrived at that step yet. He is taking things in order. I suggest starting with step nr 1: right view (stream entry)
I'm not sure where you get the idea that BB does not meditate from:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=8232
He is overly modest about his practice, but there is certainly not a lack of it.

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=15714
During my early years in Sri Lanka I did very little intensive meditation. This was not my ordination teacher's mode of practice; he integrated regular periods of meditation into his day-to-day life. When I later practiced intensive retreats on my own, I used anapana-sati [mindfulness of breathing] as my sole meditation subject. But after some time, I found my mind became dry and rigid, and I felt the need to soften and enrich it with other types of meditation. Thus, at different times and under different circumstances, I learned the practices that constitute the "four protective meditations": recollection of the Buddha, the meditation on loving kindness, the contemplation of the repugnant nature of the body, and the recollection of death. Throughout my life as a monk I have made extensive use of these four meditation subjects. I have also done occasional extended retreats at hermitages in Sri Lanka and elsewhere. Regretfully, though, because of my poor merits and the debilitating headache condition, I have not reached any attainments worthy of a true practitioner.
:anjali:
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Twilight
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Re: Samatha and Anatta

Post by Twilight »

I agree that reading suttas is important and I have read my fair share over the years. One can gain a good intellectual understanding of the dhamma by doing so, which is valuable. Sooner or later though one has to apply "right concentration". This is the development of Jhana, without which the actual insight will not arise.
I agree. But it is later, not sooner. Right concentration (witch means jhana) is the 8th step of the noble 8thfold path. It is closely connected with non-returning. What a person first has to do is the first step of the path: right view (stream entry). And speaking of the 8th step of the path, B.Bhodi has admitted that he never achieved jhana.

The insight that will arise because of developing jhana are the 3 arahant knowledges. You will have to wait a couple of decades or a couple of lifetimes for that to happen. What you should focus now is developing the insight required to arrive at right view (first step of the path), witch is done through contemplating suttas not through jhanas. Again, every person that ever achieved stream entry in the suttas did so after hearing a discourse. When making claims such as jhana been required to achieve stream entry, please provide sutta reference.

In the suttas, people who have heard powerful discourses about dependent origination normally achieved stream entry. But there were ascetics who have developed jhanas prior to hearing the discourse and they achieved arahanthip when hearing them. This is also why Buddha achieved arahanthip instantaniously when figuring out the doctrine of dependent origination. He did not first achieve stream entry, then once-returner, etc. He had already developed jhanas prior to that. And that is also why he or his teachers were not enlightened despite achieving the 8 jhanas prior to that.

You can be a hardcore ascetic all your life just like Buddha or his teachers or his ascetic friends. Yet you will not attain even stream entry by doing that, just like they didn't achieve it either without contemplating the doctrine of dependent origination until you arrive at right view. Only after doing this first step should you continue to develop step 2, step 3, step 8, etc. witch are much more difficult to develop.

What was the difference between before-enlightenment Buddha and after-enlightenment Buddha ? It certainly wasn't jhana, cause he had developed all 8 of the already. Buddha himself gives us the answer "before my enlightenment, when I was still an unenlightened bhodashitta, it did not occur to me: when what exist, is aging and death discerned .... etc. (continues with dependent origination). Then we have : "on the night of my enlightenment, it occured to me: when what exist, is aging and death discerned .... etc. (continues with dependent origination)
I'm not sure where you get the idea that BB does not meditate from:
He said it himself. As a matter of fact, if you write "Bhikkhu Bhodi" on google, one of the most searched things that appear is "B.Bhodi does not meditate". What this refers to is that he does not "meditate" in the way most people understand meditation (mahashi focusing on the breath - similar to sutta apanasanti but not exactly the same thing). He said that despite starting with mahashi technique, he does not practice it anymore but that he does not advise against it. B. Sujato also has the same opinion about that type of meditation. And as we can see from your quote, what B.Bhodi means by meditation (things like recollection of death, loving kindness, contemplating the repugnant nature of the body etc.) is not what most people understand by meditation. And that is what B.Bhodi referred to when he said he does not "meditate" anymore. In the west, meditation is synonymous with the popular mahashi technique.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link
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srivijaya
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Re: Samatha and Anatta

Post by srivijaya »

Twilight wrote:But it is later, not sooner. Right concentration (witch means jhana) is the 8th step of the noble 8thfold path. It is closely connected with non-returning. What a person first has to do is the first step of the path: right view (stream entry).
I have no idea where you get that from but if it's working for you...
:anjali:
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Twilight
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Re: Samatha and Anatta

Post by Twilight »

srivijaya wrote:
Twilight wrote:But it is later, not sooner. Right concentration (witch means jhana) is the 8th step of the noble 8thfold path. It is closely connected with non-returning. What a person first has to do is the first step of the path: right view (stream entry).
I have no idea where you get that from but if it's working for you...
:anjali:
Every time "right concentration" is described in the suttas, it is described as the 4 jhanas:
“And what, bhikkhus, is right concentration? Here, bhikkhus, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhana, which is accompanied by thought and examination, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. With the subsiding of thought and examination, he enters and dwells in the second jhana, which has internal confidence and unification of mind, is without thought and examination, and has rapture and happiness born of concentration. With the fading away as well of rapture, he dwells equanimous and, mindful and clearly comprehending, he experiences happiness with the body; he enters and dwells in the third jhana of which the noble ones declare: ‘He is equanimous, mindful, one who dwells happily.’ With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous passing away of joy and displeasure, he enters and dwells in the fourth jhana, which is neither painful nor pleasant and includes the purification of mindfulness by equanimity. This is called right concentration.”
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn45.8

What is your opinion on why Buddha, his teachers and his ascetic friends did not achieve even stream entry despite achieving all 8 jhanas ? What is your opinion on all people that ever achieved stream entry in the suttas did so after hearing a discourse, while there are zero cases where they did it in another manner ?
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link
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