I have some time to meditate and want to absolutely progress. Can I do this?

[hohohodam]

Hello,

I have quit my job, ready to be a student again this fall and am lucky to be able to devote around 8hrs straight to meditation each day. I want to progress. I really do.

Currently I visit my local Theravada temple to practice walking and Vipassana meditation (on abdomen). Perhaps it's the way things are in a temple for the lay person in the west or just the monk who gives the instruction but I find that the teachings are always the same and uninspiring. Temple unfortunately gets a lot of tourist visitors. I have requested interviews but it is still the same.

I have been pracitsing breathing meditation on nostril for couple of years which has given me a lot of calm and emotional control but as far as "milestones" that I have read about such as "nimittas" I have not been able to attain. I am absolutely ready to block out a chunk of my day to progress with the meditation I am being taught now and want to have confidence that the effort will be translated to more than just an impression of progress.

I understand how important it is to not to "look" for the mark of progress. I know how desperate my grasping mind can be. But I would like advice on what I can do in the time I have. How best can I sit. What can I attain and especially, what means progress.

Thank you.

[Goofaholix]

As you've already got a chunk of time available to do this your best bet is to attend an intensive residential retreat or go and stay at a monastery for an extended period, be willing to travel to do this as you are already finding your local temple isn't inspiring you.

[Mkoll]

Hi hohohodam,

I was just watching the documentary Fearless Mountain which is about Abhayagiri Monastery and some of Ajahn Sudanto's words reminded me of your post. I hope it may be of help.

The link should jump straight to his words. The whole documentary is well worth watching.

phpBB .

[pegembara]

Yes you can.

"For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no need for an act of will, 'May freedom from remorse arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that freedom from remorse arises in a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue.

"For a person free from remorse, there is no need for an act of will, 'May joy arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that joy arises in a person free from remorse.

"For a joyful person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May rapture arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that rapture arises in a joyful person.

"For a rapturous person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May my body be serene.' It is in the nature of things that a rapturous person grows serene in body.

"For a person serene in body, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I experience pleasure.' It is in the nature of things that a person serene in body experiences pleasure.

"For a person experiencing pleasure, there is no need for an act of will, 'May my mind grow concentrated.' It is in the nature of things that the mind of a person experiencing pleasure grows concentrated.

"For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things as they actually are.

"For a person who knows & sees things as they actually are, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I feel disenchantment.' It is in the nature of things that a person who knows & sees things as they actually are feels disenchantment.

"For a person who feels disenchantment, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I grow dispassionate.' It is in the nature of things that a person who feels disenchantment grows dispassionate.

"For a dispassionate person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I realize the knowledge & vision of release.' It is in the nature of things that a dispassionate person realizes the knowledge & vision of release.

"In this way, dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward. Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward. Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward. Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward. Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward.

"In this way, mental qualities lead on to mental qualities, mental qualities bring mental qualities to their consummation, for the sake of going from the near to the Further Shore."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

You have posted in the Samatha Bhāvana forum, but seem to be practising Vipassanã/Satipaṭṭhāna meditation. There is no need to look for nimittas if you're focusing on Vipassanā.

A little reading (no more than 30 minutes out of your 8 hours) may help you to be less anxious about "making progress."

Vipassanā Meditation Guidelines would be a good place to start.

[Cittasanto]

You have posted in the Samatha Bhāvana forum, but seem to be practising Vipassanã/Satipaṭṭhāna meditation. There is no need to look for nimittas if you're focusing on Vipassanā.

A little reading (no more than 30 minutes out of your 8 hours) may help you to be less anxious about "making progress."

Vipassanā Meditation Guidelines would be a good place to start.

This is very close to one of the first instructions I received on meditation from a Bhikkhu.
Pick a meditation instruction (sutta, or book/internet page of meditation instruction) and focus on the practice it describes. don't get bogged down with too much information, and Keep It Simple.

Lhiats dy firrinagh focklagh
Cittasanto

[ihrjordan]

While others may disagree with me, I am of the opinion that progress in the sense of profound insight resulting in release from samsara is unattainable as a layperson. As the Buddha said

...it is not possible for one occupied with the household life to realize the complete bhikkhu practice (dhamma).Sn 2.14

This means that unless one is merely bordering the world as a non-affiliated wandering mendicant or as noble potter who's seeking out a living to support his dying parents as is the case with Ghatikara then it is unlikely that the task will be completed. I think the best thing we as lay people can do while in the world is to perfect our observance of the householders discipline and give open handed-ly to those in need. This as well as study will suffice in developing one's discernment enough to be at the point in the their practice where they are absolutely certain of the truth of the Buddha's teachings.

Speaking from my own experience, I found going back to school to be a bigger strain on my concentration than maintaining a job. We don't exactly live in the most modest of societies and if you are not an Anagami or A-sexual then eventually your eyes and mind will wander only to send your body this way and that attempting to chase pleasures of all sorts. It's a common notion in how Buddhism is understood in the west that Brahmacarya is merely an optional practice which can aid in the rapid development in the individual and while this is true, it is so much more than that. True Brahmacarya according to all Dharmic traditions is not simply sexual abstinence but also the abstaining from thinking about women, from looking at them, from talking to them unnecessarily, from touching them etc.This of course is not feasible in our modern "hook up culture" of loose clothes and even looser morals. True Brahmacarya can grant the practitioner unhindered power of mind and why would anything less be acceptable in order to completely end suffering?

But really I can't emphasize the duo of virtue and giving enough...giving is so much more than helping someone else with their needs; you're helping yourself to be emotionally stronger, to be able to endure even in states of destitution. Giving develops the quality of letting go which will inevitably lead to more favorable external conditions for proper mental development; one free from essays, tests, reading assignments and promiscuous college students.

[bodom]

While others may disagree with me, I am of the opinion that progress in the sense of profound insight resulting in release from samsara is unattainable as a layperson...

Yes your right, the Buddha himself would disagree with you:

Good, Gotama, wait! Other than bhikkhus, bhikkhunis and lay disciples of Gotama, who wear white clothes and lead the holy life. Is there a single a lay disciple, who wears white clothes, leads the holy life, while partaking sensual pleasures, and doing the work in the dispensation has dispelled doubts. Has become confident of what should and should not be done, and does not need a teacher any more in the dispensation of the Teacher. Vaccha, not one, not one hundred, not two hundred, not three hundred, not four hundred, not five hundred. There are many more lay disciples of mine, wearing white clothes leading the holy life, while partaking sensual pleasures and doing the work in the dispensation have dispelled doubts Have become confident of what should and should not be done and do not need a teacher any more,' `Good, Gotama, wait! Other than the bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, the lay disciples who have arisen spontaneously and will not proceed, and the ones who have entered the stream of the Teaching and are confident, is there a single female lay disciple of good Gotama. Who wears white clothes leads the holy life has destroyed the five lower bonds to the sensual world, and is born spontaneously not to proceed' `Vaccha, not one, not one hundred, not two hundred, not three hundred, not four hundred, not five hundred. There are many more female lay disciples of mine, who have destroyed the five lower bonds to the sensual world, and are born spontaneously not to proceed,' `Good, Gotama, wait! Other than the bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay disciples arisen spontaneously who would not proceed and the ones who have entered the stream of the Teaching and are confident and the lay female disciples who have arisen apontaneously not to proceed is there is a single female lay disciple. Who wears white clothes leads the holy life, while partaking sensual pleasures, anddoing the work in the dispensation has dispelled doubts, has become confident, of what should and should not be done and does not need a teacher any more. `'Vaccha, not one, not one hundred, not two hundred, not three hundred, not four hundred, not five hundred. There are many more female lay disciples of mine wearing white clothes lead the holy life, while partaking sensual pleasures, doing the work in the dispensation have dispelled doubts. Have become confident of what should and should not be done. They do not need a teacher any more in the dispensation of the Teacher.

http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... ta-e1.html

Besides the above there are many, many suttas to be found showing householders attaining to the stage of sotapanna as well as anagami. While not immediate release from samasara in this life, with the attaining of the insights of sotapanna and anagami it will eventually result in final liberation from samsara.

[ihrjordan]

While others may disagree with me, I am of the opinion that progress in the sense of profound insight resulting in release from samsara is unattainable as a layperson...

Yes your right, the Buddha would disagree with you:

Good, Gotama, wait! Other than bhikkhus, bhikkhunis and lay disciples of Gotama, who wear white clothes and lead the holy life. Is there a single a lay disciple, who wears white clothes, leads the holy life, while partaking sensual pleasures, and doing the work in the dispensation has dispelled doubts. Has become confident of what should and should not be done, and does not need a teacher any more in the dispensation of the Teacher. Vaccha, not one, not one hundred, not two hundred, not three hundred, not four hundred, not five hundred. There are many more lay disciples of mine, wearing white clothes leading the holy life, while partaking sensual pleasures and doing the work in the dispensation have dispelled doubts Have become confident of what should and should not be done and do not need a teacher any more,' `Good, Gotama, wait! Other than the bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, the lay disciples who have arisen spontaneously and will not proceed, and the ones who have entered the stream of the Teaching and are confident, is there a single female lay disciple of good Gotama. Who wears white clothes leads the holy life has destroyed the five lower bonds to the sensual world, and is born spontaneously not to proceed' `Vaccha, not one, not one hundred, not two hundred, not three hundred, not four hundred, not five hundred. There are many more female lay disciples of mine, who have destroyed the five lower bonds to the sensual world, and are born spontaneously not to proceed,' `Good, Gotama, wait! Other than the bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay disciples arisen spontaneously who would not proceed and the ones who have entered the stream of the Teaching and are confident and the lay female disciples who have arisen apontaneously not to proceed is there is a single female lay disciple. Who wears white clothes leads the holy life, while partaking sensual pleasures, anddoing the work in the dispensation has dispelled doubts, has become confident, of what should and should not be done and does not need a teacher any more. `'Vaccha, not one, not one hundred, not two hundred, not three hundred, not four hundred, not five hundred. There are many more female lay disciples of mine wearing white clothes lead the holy life, while partaking sensual pleasures, doing the work in the dispensation have dispelled doubts. Have become confident of what should and should not be done. They do not need a teacher any more in the dispensation of the Teacher.

http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... ta-e1.html

Besides the above there are many, many suttas to be found showing householders attaining to the stage of sotapanna as well as anagami.

Are you sure? When did I say that it was impossible to attain to right view as a householder dressed in white enjoying sensual pleasures? I think I said the exact opposite...

I think the best thing we as lay people can do while in the world is to perfect our observance of the householders discipline and give open handed-ly to those in need. This as well as study will suffice in developing one's discernment enough to be at the point in the their practice where they are absolutely certain of the truth of the Buddha's teachings.

And nowhere in the suttas is it stated that one must attain Jhana to gain stream entry. But barring any actual counter evidence to my claim, I maintain it.

Edit: And these so-called householders that attained to anagami did not maintain 9-5 jobs with kids, have all the distractions of modern convenience, nor actively engage in sensual pleasures to any detrimental extent. As said in my original post of which I'm starting to doubt that you really absorbed (which is fine as I'm guilty of reading my own assumptions into other's posts from time to time) "unless one is merely bordering the world as a non-affiliated wandering mendicant or as noble potter who's seeking out a living to support his dying parents as is the case with Ghatikara then it is unlikely that the task will be completed"

[bodom]

While others may disagree with me, I am of the opinion that progress in the sense of profound insight resulting in release from samsara is unattainable as a layperson.

So then what do you mean by the above statement? Is not realizing the path and fruit of sotapanna and anagami profound insight (which lay people are more than capable of) which results in release from samsara? By profound insight do you mean arhantship?

[bodom]

As said in my original post of which I'm starting to doubt that you really absorbed

I read what you wrote but this statement:

I am of the opinion that progress in the sense of profound insight resulting in release from samsara is unattainable as a layperson.

Is inconsistent with the Buddha's teachings unless of course you are referring to arhantship but you did not specify.

[ihrjordan]

Profound insight resulting in freedom from suffering - arahantship-unattainable as a layperson

Anagami-unattainable as a householder endowed with the 5 chords of sensuality

Right view (still grains of suffering present)- attainable as a householder endowed with sensuality but "formal meditation" is not a requirement.

[bodom]

Profound insight resulting in freedom from suffering - arahantship-unattainable as a layperson

Anagami-unattainable as a householder endowed with the 5 chords of sensuality

Right view (still grains of suffering present)- attainable as a householder endowed with sensuality but "formal meditation" is not a requirement.

Sure that is all plain to see from the suttas. If You would have specified that you meant arahantship by profound insight then any confusion would have been avoided. But again my point is that sotapanna is certainly a profound insight and results in eventual freedom from samsara. According to the Buddha, householders , even while enjoying sense pleasures, are more than capable of realizing stream entry.

[ihrjordan]

Yes my apologies, I'm so used to using certain terms and epithets in my day to day contemplations and conversations that it's easy to forget that not everybody will know I'm actually referring to.

[ihrjordan]

Profound insight resulting in freedom from suffering - arahantship-unattainable as a layperson

Anagami-unattainable as a householder endowed with the 5 chords of sensuality

Right view (still grains of suffering present)- attainable as a householder endowed with sensuality but "formal meditation" is not a requirement.

Sure that is all plain to see from the suttas. If You would have specified that you meant arahantship by profound insight then any confusion would have been avoided. But again my point is that sotapanna is certainly a profound insight and results in eventual freedom from samsara. According to the Buddha, householders , even while enjoying sense pleasures, are more than capable of realizing stream entry.

But the point of my post was to address his seemingly high hopes of becoming a meditation master while still living the life of a householder which is not only unlikely but potentially harmful to one's confidence. I simply warned him of the inevitable and to not be too hard on himself if he slips up.