Relationship between 1st to 4th jhana and immaterial state

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Post Reply
A fool from HK
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:07 am

Relationship between 1st to 4th jhana and immaterial state

Post by A fool from HK » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:55 am

Hi friends,

According to the point of view Ajahn Brahm, the Bodhisatta only attained the immaterial states, which does not involve the 1st to 4th jhana, when he was trained under Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta. (It seems Bhante Vimalaramsi has similar point of view.) Then does it mean that there is a path to attained the the immaterial states which the 1st to 4th jhana can be bypassed?

Thanks

SarathW
Posts: 10159
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Relationship between 1st to 4th jhana and immaterial state

Post by SarathW » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:19 am

Can you give the reference?
The way I understand all up to 4th Jhana , have to be acquired in a particular order and then to the Arupavacara Jhana.
:)

This may also some help:

"Now, lady, how does the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling come about?"

"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is attaining the cessation of perception and feeling that 'I am about to attain the cessation of perception and feeling' or that 'I am attaining the cessation of perception and feeling' or that 'I have attained the cessation of perception and feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."

"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception and feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception and feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications." [1]

"Now, lady, how does emergence from the cessation of perception and feeling come about?"

"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is emerging from the cessation of perception and feeling that 'I am about to emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling' or that 'I am emerging from the cessation of perception and feeling' or that 'I have emerged from the cessation of perception and feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."

"But when a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception and feeling, which things arise first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception and feeling, friend Visakha, mental fabrications arise first, then bodily fabrications, then verbal fabrications."

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception and feeling, lady, how many contacts make contact?"

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception and feeling, friend Visakha, three contacts make contact: contact with emptiness, contact with the sign-less, and contact with the undirected." [2]

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception and feeling, lady, to what does his mind lean, to what does it tend, to what does it incline?"


http://buddhasutra.com/files/cula_vedalla_sutta.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

dhammarelax
Posts: 1087
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:59 pm

Re: Relationship between 1st to 4th jhana and immaterial state

Post by dhammarelax » Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:01 am

A fool from HK wrote:Hi friends,

According to the point of view Ajahn Brahm, the Bodhisatta only attained the immaterial states, which does not involve the 1st to 4th jhana, when he was trained under Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta. (It seems Bhante Vimalaramsi has similar point of view.) Then does it mean that there is a path to attained the the immaterial states which the 1st to 4th jhana can be bypassed?

Thanks
I am inclined to believe this as well because if Alara had all the jhanas , he would have taught them to the Buddha and he could have recalled his past lifes while practicing under him. Yes there is a path to the arupa jhanas where the rupa jhanas need not to be experienced, I had the experience of neither perception nor perception before I experienced the 1rst jhana but this was utterly useless because I didn't know how to use the 4 noble truths to make the final step in to cessation. At the time I was using a distorted version of Satipatthana which consisted mainly of just being a witness to what happens in the mind.

Remember that the jhanas are not treated lightly in the Suttas they are really important, important enough that the Buddhas last actions before Paranibanna were to go in to them in direct and reverse order and to finally pass away from the 4rth, is likely that something of this importance would have been mentioned in the case of Alara.

smile all the time
dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

A fool from HK
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:07 am

Re: Relationship between 1st to 4th jhana and immaterial state

Post by A fool from HK » Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:53 am

SarathW wrote:Can you give the reference?
The way I understand all up to 4th Jhana , have to be acquired in a particular order and then to the Arupavacara Jhana.
:)

This may also some help:

"Now, lady, how does the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling come about?"

"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is attaining the cessation of perception and feeling that 'I am about to attain the cessation of perception and feeling' or that 'I am attaining the cessation of perception and feeling' or that 'I have attained the cessation of perception and feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."

"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception and feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception and feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications." [1]

"Now, lady, how does emergence from the cessation of perception and feeling come about?"

"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is emerging from the cessation of perception and feeling that 'I am about to emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling' or that 'I am emerging from the cessation of perception and feeling' or that 'I have emerged from the cessation of perception and feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."

"But when a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception and feeling, which things arise first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception and feeling, friend Visakha, mental fabrications arise first, then bodily fabrications, then verbal fabrications."

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception and feeling, lady, how many contacts make contact?"

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception and feeling, friend Visakha, three contacts make contact: contact with emptiness, contact with the sign-less, and contact with the undirected." [2]

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception and feeling, lady, to what does his mind lean, to what does it tend, to what does it incline?"


http://buddhasutra.com/files/cula_vedalla_sutta.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This is mentioned in Ajahn Brahm's book "Mindfulness, Bliss, And Beyond: A Meditator's Handbook". But I only read the Chinese version. So I have difficulty in finding the reference in English :(

User avatar
khlawng
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:28 pm

Re: Relationship between 1st to 4th jhana and immaterial state

Post by khlawng » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:16 am


User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2158
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Relationship between 1st to 4th jhana and immaterial state

Post by Zom » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:53 am

Then does it mean that there is a path to attained the the immaterial states which the 1st to 4th jhana can be bypassed?
There is no such path. Arupa-jhanas are just modified 4th jhana. Only object of perception changes there, but not the state itself (at least for first 3 arupas). Kalama & Ramaputta had all jhanas for sure, and many other suttas (like DN1) confirm that non-buddhists can have 1-4 jhanas.

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 4207
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Ban Sri Pradu Rubber Forest, Phrao, Chiangmai

Re: Relationship between 1st to 4th jhana and immaterial state

Post by Dhammanando » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:13 pm

Zom wrote:There is no such path. Arupa-jhanas are just modified 4th jhana.
:goodpost:

It's nice to see the Theravada position being presented for once in the Theravada Meditation Forum.

:tongue:

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Relationship between 1st to 4th jhana and immaterial state

Post by daverupa » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:43 pm

khlawng wrote:This may offer some insight...

http://www.wildmind.org/blogs/on-practi ... h-of-jhana
Something like that is the shape of my own thinking on the matter; the Theravada position doesn't appear convincing to me.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

SarathW
Posts: 10159
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Relationship between 1st to 4th jhana and immaterial state

Post by SarathW » Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:53 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Zom wrote:There is no such path. Arupa-jhanas are just modified 4th jhana.
:goodpost:

It's nice to see the Theravada position being presented for once in the Theravada Meditation Forum.

:tongue:
This is how I understand it too. Zom put it in a nice way "Modified 4th Jhana"
I keep my mind open, as I have not experience any of these as yet.
:juggling:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
Posts: 10159
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Relationship between 1st to 4th jhana and immaterial state

Post by SarathW » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:49 pm

khlawng wrote:This may offer some insight...


http://www.wildmind.org/blogs/on-practi ... h-of-jhana
Thanks for the post.
Now I can make more sense of the little experience I had in the past.
:)

The new question I have now is,
1)how Cessation of Perception and Feeling fitting to this argument in this article?
2)"The dimension of non-percipient beings and, second, the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. [These are the two spheres.]
Why Space and consciousness is not considers spheres? Please answer to this question in my new post.
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 33#p341433" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests