Fear of emptiness

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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lotus flower
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Fear of emptiness

Post by lotus flower » Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:42 pm

Hello dear forum members. I would like get any help, i would like hear experiences from other meditators. at the last weeks i attained deeper level of samadhi, absorption easily comes while i focus on the breathing, i see blue and white lights (Nimitta) sometimes blue, sometimes white... Absorption comes, a very bright light comes, i forget the breathing, and the light drive me. my mind become silent, nobody want enter into samadhi, and nobody want exit. i lose the personality, i feel i am disapear. i forget everything - i forget the personality. sometimes i feel the body, sometimes i don't feel the body. it is still fearful sometimes for me. but sometimes i feel endless peace and endless joy while i am in deep samadhi. But sometimes i feel strong fear. Fear of the fact that i am nothing. Fear of non self. I don't fear because i let go everything. But i fear of non self feeling.

I try to tell myself in daily life that i need not afraid to samadhi, need not afraid to joy, need not afraid to emptiness. Everything are impermanent. Then who i am? Nothing. This insight help a little.

Sometimes i remember deep samadhi in daily life and then fear again comes. i just don't understand myself. i doing vipassana meditation (Mahasi style) so i must have insight about Anatta teaching. Others also feel fear sometimes or am i the only one here? Why it happens? Any advice? Thank you very much.
We found the teaching of the Buddha. Be grateful for it... We can meditate... Be grateful for it... We know that this universe is the samsara. Be grateful for it... We have THE CHANCE TO ATTAIN NIBBANA. Be grateful for it... :buddha1: :buddha2:

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Akhandha
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Re: Fear of emptiness

Post by Akhandha » Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:32 pm

Good time, my friend.
sometimes i feel strong fear. Fear of the fact that i am nothing. Fear of non self.
In daytime life you feel like a little drop.
While being in samadhi, you feel like being ocean.
The fear comes from ignorance, from the idea that your personality can disappear in the ocean)))
Actually, there is no separate "LITTLE YOU" (which is afraid of disappearing) and "OCEANIC MIND" which feels bliss in samadhi.
There is no such division. It's the one.
You are nothing means - you are always ocean of bliss. Don't forget it in your everyday life. Keep it in your mind.

If you forget anything in samadhi, it doesn't matter. Everything is anatta. It means everything is natural and goes itself in the best way. This ocean is pure love and bliss, trust it.
sometimes i feel endless peace and endless joy while i am in deep samadhi
that's absolutely right.

paul
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Re: Fear of emptiness

Post by paul » Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:31 am

Hi lotus flower,
Thanks for your honest description; sounds like yor practice is improving, but I'm not sure about the coloured lights. When one is at the forefront of their practice, pushing the boundaries, whether it's samatha or vipassana, then it's undeniably lonely in my experience. I believe this is a necessary part of practice as one crosses the unknown between one stage and another and forges ahead. I've learnt to detach from this feeling and actually regard it as a verification of the validity of my practice. If one is feeling these painful feelings I believe it's a sign one is in contact with reality and is probably what the Buddha means by "existence is suffering". The important thing is to cultivate detachment.
---SN 36.6:
"Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he/she senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he/she senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he/she senses it disjoined from it. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones disjoined from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He/she is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

"This is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor between the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones and the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person."

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Aloka
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Re: Fear of emptiness

Post by Aloka » Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:19 am

lotus flower wrote: Any advice? Thank you very much
Hi lotus flower,

Have you ever been to a regular meditation group which is directed by a knowledgeable meditation teacher who gives advice and feedback ?

If not, I would strongly advise you to see if you can find one locally, or go further afield for some weekend (or longer) meditation courses occasionally. Otherwise, its possible that you might receive opinions & advice from strangers on the internet which may not necessarily be suitable for your individual needs.

Kind regards,

Aloka

:anjali:
Last edited by Aloka on Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lotus flower
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Re: Fear of emptiness

Post by lotus flower » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:14 am

Akhandha and Paul: Thank you. Paul thank you for the helpful sutta. i will keep this sutta in mind. Akhandha: you are very true, i should trust in this 'ocean' because i really feel endless love , endless joy, endless peace. it is the best thing which i experienced in my all life. it is not bad really. for me it is the best feeling. No doubt. so i will try to trust. and yes, you are true, i am always this ocean of bliss. We are all the ocean of bliss :) i will keep in mind.

Aloka: i already have a teacher in my country, he said i should accept the fact that personality is a fake wiew. And let go the fear. but it is not always easy. Often i can do it but not always.
We found the teaching of the Buddha. Be grateful for it... We can meditate... Be grateful for it... We know that this universe is the samsara. Be grateful for it... We have THE CHANCE TO ATTAIN NIBBANA. Be grateful for it... :buddha1: :buddha2:

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kirk5a
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Re: Fear of emptiness

Post by kirk5a » Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:41 pm

lotus flower wrote:We are all the ocean of bliss :) i will keep in mind.
.
Careful with that. Bliss is impermanent, therefore it is also not self.
There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
Similarly for second, third, fourth jhanas, infinite space, infinite consciousness, dimension of nothingness.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

paul
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Re: Fear of emptiness

Post by paul » Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:32 pm

lotus flower wrote: And let go the fear. but it is not always easy. Often i can do it but not always.
Hi lotus flower,
You're not the first to travel this path:

---Meditating on No-Self, Sister Khema:

"There is no specific entity in anything. That is emptiness. That is the nothingness. That nothingness is also experienced in meditation. It is empty, it is devoid of a specific person, devoid of a specific thing, devoid of anything which makes it permanent, devoid of anything which even makes it important. The whole thing is in flux. So the emptiness is that. And the emptiness is to be seen everywhere; to be seen in oneself. And that is what is called anatta, non-self. Empty of an entity. There is nobody there. It is all imagination. At first that feels very insecure.

That person that I've been regarding with so much concern, that person trying to do this or that, that person who will be my security, will be my insurance for a happy life — once I find that person — that person does not really exist. What a frightening and insecure idea that is! What a feeling of fear arises! But as a matter of fact, it's just the reverse. If one accepts and bears that fright and goes through it, one comes to complete and utter relief and release."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... bl095.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by paul on Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

lotus flower
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Re: Fear of emptiness

Post by lotus flower » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:06 pm

Thank you very much to everybody :namaste:
We found the teaching of the Buddha. Be grateful for it... We can meditate... Be grateful for it... We know that this universe is the samsara. Be grateful for it... We have THE CHANCE TO ATTAIN NIBBANA. Be grateful for it... :buddha1: :buddha2:

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Akhandha
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Re: Fear of emptiness

Post by Akhandha » Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:24 pm

kirk5a wrote:
lotus flower wrote:We are all the ocean of bliss :) i will keep in mind.
.
Careful with that. Bliss is impermanent, therefore it is also not self.
Of course you are right. I've badly formulated my idea))
Bliss is impermanent and anatta. Lotus flower's fear is just the same - impermanent and anatta.
The bliss is typical for the first jhanas, that's why I've made accent on it, it'll disappear on later stages, only calm mind will remain (and in nirodha even the mind will stop).

paul
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Re: Fear of emptiness

Post by paul » Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:57 pm

Akhandha wrote:
I've badly formulated my idea))
I benefit from the view of women teachers such as Upasika Kee Nanayon (who was an autodidact), because it's primarily experiential, as one sees in the posts on this page, not doctrinaire like the male view tends to be. There needs to be a balance; experience needs to be guided, but not overwhelmed by, doctrine. Progressing from experience to doctrine is the way the Buddha worked, so it can be a valid approach.
Last edited by paul on Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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manas
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Re: Fear of emptiness

Post by manas » Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:20 pm

The Suñña Sutta comes to mind:
Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "It is said that the world is empty, the world is empty, lord. In what respect is it said that the world is empty?"

"Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty. And what is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self? The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self.

"The ear is empty...

"The nose is empty...

"The tongue is empty...

"The body is empty...

"The intellect is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Ideas... Intellect-consciousness... Intellect-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Thus it is said that the world is empty."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Now I'm no expert of samadhi, but I think that simply investigating any of the phenomena you may experience - lights, fear, bliss, whatever - and witnessing how they all without exception are impermanent, cannot be held on to, and are therefore not fitting to be regarded as 'you' or as 'yours' - might be helpful. Even the feeling of fear of 'not self' arises and passes away. Even the concept of 'there isn't anyone' is just a thought, it too doesn't belong to you. I'm no expert, but this is what comes to mind.
How often we regret having said too much, and how seldom, too little.

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manas
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Re: Fear of emptiness

Post by manas » Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:32 pm

Akhandha wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
lotus flower wrote:We are all the ocean of bliss :) i will keep in mind.
.
Careful with that. Bliss is impermanent, therefore it is also not self.
As I understand it, one ought to be careful not to identify with it as 'me' or as 'mine', but it's perfectly ok to enjoy it and allow it to saturate one's entire body all the same.
How often we regret having said too much, and how seldom, too little.

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