Kasina meditations taught by the Buddha or no?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Zom
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Re: Kasina meditations taught by the Buddha or no?

Post by Zom » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:12 pm

Form is meant as your own subjective experience through body, feelings, mentation, and mental objects, not the world.
Form (rupa) can be inner one (personal) and outer one (external objects). Texts are clear on this matter.

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Re: Kasina meditations taught by the Buddha or no?

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:08 am

Zom wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:12 pm
Form is meant as your own subjective experience through body, feelings, mentation, and mental objects, not the world.
Form (rupa) can be inner one (personal) and outer one (external objects). Texts are clear on this matter.
Yes, but the subjective experience of inner and outer is run through the body, its senses/contact/feeling/perception, etc., are all physical processes including thoughts and feelings. This is the stuff that is identified with ownership, self. There is no I thought apart from the senses and the chain of causation. Rupa is subjective, not external. The form that concerns satipatthana, vipassana, and samatha, is the subjective experience of the body which we imbue with ownership and desirability, time and space. This is my point.

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Re: Kasina meditations taught by the Buddha or no?

Post by Zom » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:49 am

In arupaloka where the matter is absent at all, even a fine one, one still experiences perception, feeling. There is no such thing as "body" there.

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Re: Kasina meditations taught by the Buddha or no?

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:39 am

Zom wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:49 am
In arupaloka where the matter is absent at all, even a fine one, one still experiences perception, feeling. There is no such thing as "body" there.
Zom, how can matter be absent? You mean the subjective experience of it? This is a temporary state like sleep is. You can say that matter is absent when you are asleep, but you wake up again. Even if matter were absent, what is the point? Nothing has been established. There is still the subjective experience of the body. Many activities of the body are not conscious like the flow of the blood. We are talking about the senses and contact with stimulation. This is what we manufacture a narrative from. Perceptions result with likes and dislikes plus the dichotomy of subject/object. How does Arupaloka see causation and the manufacturing of dissatisfaction? Arupaloka does not unbind anything. It must be let go of. Am I nuts?

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Re: Kasina meditations taught by the Buddha or no?

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:28 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:39 am
Zom wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:49 am
In arupaloka where the matter is absent at all, even a fine one, one still experiences perception, feeling. There is no such thing as "body" there.
Zom, how can matter be absent? You mean the subjective experience of it? This is a temporary state like sleep is. You can say that matter is absent when you are asleep, but you wake up again. Even if matter were absent, what is the point? Nothing has been established. There is still the subjective experience of the body. Many activities of the body are not conscious like the flow of the blood. We are talking about the senses and contact with stimulation. This is what we manufacture a narrative from. Perceptions result with likes and dislikes plus the dichotomy of subject/object. How does Arupaloka see causation and the manufacturing of dissatisfaction? Arupaloka does not unbind anything. It must be let go of. Am I nuts?
Aren't you confusing arūpaloka (i.e. the realm where formless beings live) with arūpajjhāna (a meditative state attainable by humans) ?

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Re: Kasina meditations taught by the Buddha or no?

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:41 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:28 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:39 am
Zom wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:49 am
In arupaloka where the matter is absent at all, even a fine one, one still experiences perception, feeling. There is no such thing as "body" there.
Zom, how can matter be absent? You mean the subjective experience of it? This is a temporary state like sleep is. You can say that matter is absent when you are asleep, but you wake up again. Even if matter were absent, what is the point? Nothing has been established. There is still the subjective experience of the body. Many activities of the body are not conscious like the flow of the blood. We are talking about the senses and contact with stimulation. This is what we manufacture a narrative from. Perceptions result with likes and dislikes plus the dichotomy of subject/object. How does Arupaloka see causation and the manufacturing of dissatisfaction? Arupaloka does not unbind anything. It must be let go of. Am I nuts?
Aren't you confusing arūpaloka (i.e. the realm where formless beings live) with arūpajjhāna (a meditative state attainable by humans) ?
Bhante, thanks for pointing this out. For some reason, I was assuming Zom was talking about Arupasamadhi because of the connections to kasina meditation. I know nothing about arupaloka. Is it relevant to what I'm talking about?

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Re: Kasina meditations taught by the Buddha or no?

Post by Zom » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:49 am

Zom, how can matter be absent? You mean the subjective experience of it? This is a temporary state like sleep is.
It seems like you don't imagine an existence without a body (or, perhaps, physical bodily organs?). But still, accroding to Dhamma, there is such existence, and no, it is not a "state like a sleep" -) Quite opposite - 3rd arupasphere (sphere of "nothingness") is called "the best and highest in terms of perception".

As for arupasamadhi and the actual rebirth in the corresponding realm - I can't say for sure that these experiences are the same, though, nothing in the texts hints they are different.

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Re: Kasina meditations taught by the Buddha or no?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:35 am

mal4mac wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:32 pm
According to Wikipedia kasinas are visual objects, like actual coloured disks, and I see nothing in your sutta references about looking at coloured disks, or other things "out there", with open eyes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasina
I don't know how you would concentrate on a colour without actually looking at it, at least for a while?

I assume that coloured disks emerged as a convenient way to do the practice - easier than painting a wall yellow, or waiting for a blue sky, or going out to find some green grass, or whatever.

Anyway, my personal rule about different methods of practice is "don't knock it until you've tried it". ;)
Last edited by Dinsdale on Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Kasina meditations taught by the Buddha or no?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:37 am

Zom wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:12 pm
Form (rupa) can be inner one (personal) and outer one (external objects). Texts are clear on this matter.
Yes, though there isn't a consensus on the reason for the distinction.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=30445&hilit=external%2Finternal

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Re: Kasina meditations taught by the Buddha or no?

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:43 am

Zom wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:49 am
Zom, how can matter be absent? You mean the subjective experience of it? This is a temporary state like sleep is.
It seems like you don't imagine an existence without a body (or, perhaps, physical bodily organs?). But still, accroding to Dhamma, there is such existence, and no, it is not a "state like a sleep" -) Quite opposite - 3rd arupasphere (sphere of "nothingness") is called "the best and highest in terms of perception".

As for arupasamadhi and the actual rebirth in the corresponding realm - I can't say for sure that these experiences are the same, though, nothing in the texts hints they are different.
I am under the impression that the Buddha let go of the sphere of nothingness. Punnaji explains as follows: I'm paraphrasing here....
Next is to give up this awareness of nothing, too. That state, Neither Sensation Nor No Sensation (Nevasanna Nasanna Yatana), threshhold of perception, the ultimate limit. Buddha could not go further and joined with the 5 ascetics and did austerities, but no satisfaction found. He decided to let go of everything and came to the state of Neither Sensation Nor No Sensation again, and let go of that. This is called Sanna Vedayita Nirodha, Cessation of Sensation and Feeling. The complete stopping of the activity called mind. Mind is not separate from body. Mind is an activity of the body and can be stopped. The body becomes ‘like dead’. Metabolism keeps working to maintain body and temperature.
Sensation has stopped. Avijja=insentience. The absence of sensitivity. When waking up from this, one sees how perception creates the world, self, the objective and subjective, which is suffering. Paticca Samupadda. This is awakening from the dream of existence. Nirodha Samapatti is the seeing of what is going on. Stopping of bhava=existence. Cessation/nibbana. You have become a Buddha.

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Re: Kasina meditations taught by the Buddha or no?

Post by Zom » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:23 am

Yes, though there isn't a consensus on the reason for the distinction.
The reason is obvious: external elements are not internal -)
I am under the impression that the Buddha let go of the sphere of nothingness.
Yes, because this is also a samsaric realm. I just said that, according to him, the perception is best over there, in this "sphere of nothingness". Don't ask me how so and why - it is just written in the suttas.

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