jhanas and nirodha?...

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
User avatar
srivijaya
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:31 pm
Location: UK

Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by srivijaya » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:14 pm

Akhandha wrote: I never sleep deeply. My awareness is very high while sleeping.
So you have more awareness in sleep than you do in this state?

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 5779
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Aloka » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:40 pm

The link given by Culavuso for contact information at Amaravati Monastery UK was incorrect. Try this one - the monastery office is probably the best one to follow up to begin with:

http://www.amaravati.org/about/contact-us/



:anjali:

User avatar
Akhandha
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:53 pm
Location: Russia, Moscow
Contact:

Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha » Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:08 am

srivijaya wrote:
Akhandha wrote: I never sleep deeply. My awareness is very high while sleeping.
So you have more awareness in sleep than you do in this state?
Yes
Very clear awareness while sleeping
And the state in question is total absence of awareness, I'd say it's totally unconscious
When I return from it, I've a feeling that ME (perception subject) and "world" REappears from "nothing"
not even from nothing, it's as if something ONE divides in two - subject and object - and so the act of perception begins again.

Aloka wrote:The link given by Culavuso for contact information at Amaravati Monastery UK was incorrect. Try this one - the monastery office is probably the best one to follow up to begin with:

http://www.amaravati.org/about/contact-us/ :anjali:
Thank you very much. :anjali: Last time I really had no reaction from there. I'll try again.

User avatar
srivijaya
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:31 pm
Location: UK

Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by srivijaya » Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:19 am

Akhandha wrote:[
Yes
Very clear awareness while sleeping
And the state in question is total absence of awareness, I'd say it's totally unconscious
When I return from it, I've a feeling that ME (perception subject) and "world" REappears from "nothing"
not even from nothing, it's as if something ONE divides in two - subject and object - and so the act of perception begins again.
From what you describe it very much sounds like a profound non-dual state, as you can see the re-creation of space-time in the sphere of subject/object when you move out of it. I really don't know if it is nirodha, as I had always assumed that after passing through nirodha one attains unbinding, the state of the arhat. Others may correct me on that.

User avatar
Akhandha
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:53 pm
Location: Russia, Moscow
Contact:

Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha » Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:40 am

srivijaya wrote: it very much sounds like a profound non-dual state
Yes, it really looks like a non-dual state
What I'd like to understand is what does it correspond to in buddhist tradition.

freedom
Posts: 190
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:44 am

Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by freedom » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:18 am

Akhandha wrote: Very clear awareness while sleeping
And the state in question is total absence of awareness, I'd say it's totally unconscious
Very nice to hear a profound experience. I am just curious that how do you know the state is total absence of awareness? When you said that "it's totally unconscious", does it mean that it (that state) is an unconscious object that you can observe? How can you have very clear awareness while you are in total absence of awareness? Thanks.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

User avatar
Akhandha
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:53 pm
Location: Russia, Moscow
Contact:

Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:40 am

freedom wrote: I am just curious that how do you know the state is total absence of awareness?
I understand it was totally unconscious at the moment when I observe the very beginning of my returning from it. The first thing I see is the moment when awareness re-appears, when perception begins again.
freedom wrote:When you said that "it's totally unconscious", does it mean that it (that state) is an unconscious object that you can observe?
No, in this state I don't observe anything. There is no perception at all. There is no subject of perception. As I usually say about, "There is no ME".
freedom wrote:How can you have very clear awareness while you are in total absence of awareness? Thanks.
I've got clear awareness when I simply sleep or when I meditate.
This unconscious state is the only state where there is no awareness at all. It comes just after the moment when the most possible concentration has been reached. When the mind is totally focused, calm and "united", after it this unconscious state comes, perception stops.

freedom
Posts: 190
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:44 am

Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by freedom » Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:25 am

Akhandha wrote:
freedom wrote: I am just curious that how do you know the state is total absence of awareness?
I understand it was totally unconscious at the moment when I observe the very beginning of my returning from it. The first thing I see is the moment when awareness re-appears, when perception begins again.
freedom wrote:When you said that "it's totally unconscious", does it mean that it (that state) is an unconscious object that you can observe?
No, in this state I don't observe anything. There is no perception at all. There is no subject of perception. As I usually say about, "There is no ME".
freedom wrote:How can you have very clear awareness while you are in total absence of awareness? Thanks.
I've got clear awareness when I simply sleep or when I meditate.
This unconscious state is the only state where there is no awareness at all. It comes just after the moment when the most possible concentration has been reached. When the mind is totally focused, calm and "united", after it this unconscious state comes, perception stops.
Thanks for your explanation. As I understand, you lost your awareness for a while, then later you regained your awareness and realized that missing time (Correct me if I misunderstood you). What happens after you regain your awareness and perception?
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

User avatar
srivijaya
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:31 pm
Location: UK

Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by srivijaya » Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:11 am

Akhandha wrote:
srivijaya wrote: it very much sounds like a profound non-dual state
Yes, it really looks like a non-dual state
What I'd like to understand is what does it correspond to in buddhist tradition.
I'm not sure to be honest. It sounds like niroda on one hand but without the attainment of liberation. There is another possibility however, something which is known in on line debate as "jhana deep".

There are two camps on the subject of jhana - those who claim awareness during jhana (jhana light) and those who claim no awareness at all - even in first jhana (jhana deep). Perhaps it's akin to the latter, though you seem to still have awareness of some kind in the preceding stages. I would be interested to hear what others have to say on this.

When it comes to the subject of non-duality, you will generally find more receptiveness to this view amongst mahayanists than theravadans, although it's nowhere near as systematic or quantifiable.

User avatar
Akhandha
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:53 pm
Location: Russia, Moscow
Contact:

Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha » Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:09 pm

freedom wrote: As I understand, you lost your awareness for a while, then later you regained your awareness and realized that missing time (Correct me if I misunderstood you).
Yes. sometimes the awareness can be lost for hours. in other cases - for some minutes.
freedom wrote:What happens after you regain your awareness and perception?
When I regain my awareness, first of all there is a moment when "one divides in two" - subject and object of perception re-appear. Then, perception begins, but it's like spots of light and dark, something is seen, but there in no ideas about what it is. No labels for things. No dividing in different things. No thoughts at all. Calmness where "I-don't-know-who sees I-don't-know-what" ))) Then, very slowly comes the understanding about what are the things that are seen. At this stage I don't still know WHO I AM. Simply an awareness, that's all. Then, after a time, I come to remember who I am and where I am. Then, thoughts re-appear. And I think: "Oh, it's great, there was no ME again" ))) A feel renewed, like reborn after returning from there.
srivijaya wrote:There are two camps on the subject of jhana - those who claim awareness during jhana (jhana light) and those who claim no awareness at all - even in first jhana (jhana deep). Perhaps it's akin to the latter, though you seem to still have awareness of some kind in the preceding stages.
Yes, at the preceding stages I have very clear awareness.
As I know, in the Pali Canon there are many descriptions of the 4 jhanas. So, my experience totally corresponds to these descriptions... That's why I'd like too to understand what this unconscious state is.

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6437
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: California

Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Mkoll » Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:16 pm

I'd suggest reading, or re-reading if that's the case, more of the suttas. You may find direction there about how to apply insight and wisdom to your situation.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

User avatar
Kumara
Posts: 654
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:14 am

Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Kumara » Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:25 am

Akhandha wrote:After some time when I return from this total absence I think it was the greatest thing I've even experienced. I think - great, I didn't exist again)))
Your like/desire non-existence?
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

User avatar
IanAnd
Posts: 403
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:19 am
Location: the deserts of Arizona

Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by IanAnd » Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:44 am

Akhandha wrote:
freedom wrote: As I understand, you lost your awareness for a while, then later you regained your awareness and realized that missing time (Correct me if I misunderstood you).
Yes. sometimes the awareness can be lost for hours. in other cases - for some minutes.
srivijaya wrote:There are two camps on the subject of jhana - those who claim awareness during jhana (jhana light) and those who claim no awareness at all - even in first jhana (jhana deep). Perhaps it's akin to the latter, though you seem to still have awareness of some kind in the preceding stages.
Yes, at the preceding stages I have very clear awareness.
As I know, in the Pali Canon there are many descriptions of the 4 jhanas. So, my experience totally corresponds to these descriptions... That's why I'd like too to understand what this unconscious state is.
This is something that only you are able to decide for yourself. You know what you experienced. No one can tell you that you didn't experience it, or that you are just imagining things. You yourself know.

Look up sanna-vedayita-nirodha and see if that definition fits the experience. If it does, then the only way to use it in your practice is to contemplate the effect it has on your understanding of the Dhamma. Those imploring you to "apply insight and wisdom to your situation" are in the right here.
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

User avatar
Akhandha
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:53 pm
Location: Russia, Moscow
Contact:

Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha » Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:03 am

Kumara wrote:
Akhandha wrote:After some time when I return from this total absence I think it was the greatest thing I've even experienced. I think - great, I didn't exist again)))
Your like/desire non-existence?
Not at all. I mean the experience itself is curious. It's like potential existence, the ROOT from which existence appears.
IanAnd wrote:Look up sanna-vedayita-nirodha and see if that definition fits the experience.
Thank you, I'll read and compare.

User avatar
Shuun
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:32 am

Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Shuun » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:48 pm

Not sure about 'root of existence'...

But - are you sure you are not determining your mind to jump out of whatever that state is by having subtle or not subtle intention of rejoicing about it after you come out? Would that not incline mind into 'hurry up' attitude and such, preventing from longer lasting experience that could provide you with some more significance and chance for wholesome discernment after emerging? Have you perfected all Jhanas, being able to control their duration, enter and exit any with predetermination? Go 'up' and 'down' and turn around with confidence? Are you putting your mind toward some wholesome inspection into nature of reality just after you come out of it, so that malleable and bright mind is put to use?

Those questions are intended for answering to yourself.

May you be free from suffering :clap:

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests