jhanas and nirodha?...

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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srivijaya
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by srivijaya » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:14 pm

Akhandha wrote: I never sleep deeply. My awareness is very high while sleeping.
So you have more awareness in sleep than you do in this state?

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Aloka
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Aloka » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:40 pm

The link given by Culavuso for contact information at Amaravati Monastery UK was incorrect. Try this one - the monastery office is probably the best one to follow up to begin with:

http://www.amaravati.org/about/contact-us/



:anjali:

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Akhandha
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha » Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:08 am

srivijaya wrote:
Akhandha wrote: I never sleep deeply. My awareness is very high while sleeping.
So you have more awareness in sleep than you do in this state?
Yes
Very clear awareness while sleeping
And the state in question is total absence of awareness, I'd say it's totally unconscious
When I return from it, I've a feeling that ME (perception subject) and "world" REappears from "nothing"
not even from nothing, it's as if something ONE divides in two - subject and object - and so the act of perception begins again.

Aloka wrote:The link given by Culavuso for contact information at Amaravati Monastery UK was incorrect. Try this one - the monastery office is probably the best one to follow up to begin with:

http://www.amaravati.org/about/contact-us/ :anjali:
Thank you very much. :anjali: Last time I really had no reaction from there. I'll try again.

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srivijaya
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by srivijaya » Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:19 am

Akhandha wrote:[
Yes
Very clear awareness while sleeping
And the state in question is total absence of awareness, I'd say it's totally unconscious
When I return from it, I've a feeling that ME (perception subject) and "world" REappears from "nothing"
not even from nothing, it's as if something ONE divides in two - subject and object - and so the act of perception begins again.
From what you describe it very much sounds like a profound non-dual state, as you can see the re-creation of space-time in the sphere of subject/object when you move out of it. I really don't know if it is nirodha, as I had always assumed that after passing through nirodha one attains unbinding, the state of the arhat. Others may correct me on that.

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Akhandha
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha » Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:40 am

srivijaya wrote: it very much sounds like a profound non-dual state
Yes, it really looks like a non-dual state
What I'd like to understand is what does it correspond to in buddhist tradition.

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by freedom » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:18 am

Akhandha wrote: Very clear awareness while sleeping
And the state in question is total absence of awareness, I'd say it's totally unconscious
Very nice to hear a profound experience. I am just curious that how do you know the state is total absence of awareness? When you said that "it's totally unconscious", does it mean that it (that state) is an unconscious object that you can observe? How can you have very clear awareness while you are in total absence of awareness? Thanks.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:40 am

freedom wrote: I am just curious that how do you know the state is total absence of awareness?
I understand it was totally unconscious at the moment when I observe the very beginning of my returning from it. The first thing I see is the moment when awareness re-appears, when perception begins again.
freedom wrote:When you said that "it's totally unconscious", does it mean that it (that state) is an unconscious object that you can observe?
No, in this state I don't observe anything. There is no perception at all. There is no subject of perception. As I usually say about, "There is no ME".
freedom wrote:How can you have very clear awareness while you are in total absence of awareness? Thanks.
I've got clear awareness when I simply sleep or when I meditate.
This unconscious state is the only state where there is no awareness at all. It comes just after the moment when the most possible concentration has been reached. When the mind is totally focused, calm and "united", after it this unconscious state comes, perception stops.

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by freedom » Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:25 am

Akhandha wrote:
freedom wrote: I am just curious that how do you know the state is total absence of awareness?
I understand it was totally unconscious at the moment when I observe the very beginning of my returning from it. The first thing I see is the moment when awareness re-appears, when perception begins again.
freedom wrote:When you said that "it's totally unconscious", does it mean that it (that state) is an unconscious object that you can observe?
No, in this state I don't observe anything. There is no perception at all. There is no subject of perception. As I usually say about, "There is no ME".
freedom wrote:How can you have very clear awareness while you are in total absence of awareness? Thanks.
I've got clear awareness when I simply sleep or when I meditate.
This unconscious state is the only state where there is no awareness at all. It comes just after the moment when the most possible concentration has been reached. When the mind is totally focused, calm and "united", after it this unconscious state comes, perception stops.
Thanks for your explanation. As I understand, you lost your awareness for a while, then later you regained your awareness and realized that missing time (Correct me if I misunderstood you). What happens after you regain your awareness and perception?
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by srivijaya » Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:11 am

Akhandha wrote:
srivijaya wrote: it very much sounds like a profound non-dual state
Yes, it really looks like a non-dual state
What I'd like to understand is what does it correspond to in buddhist tradition.
I'm not sure to be honest. It sounds like niroda on one hand but without the attainment of liberation. There is another possibility however, something which is known in on line debate as "jhana deep".

There are two camps on the subject of jhana - those who claim awareness during jhana (jhana light) and those who claim no awareness at all - even in first jhana (jhana deep). Perhaps it's akin to the latter, though you seem to still have awareness of some kind in the preceding stages. I would be interested to hear what others have to say on this.

When it comes to the subject of non-duality, you will generally find more receptiveness to this view amongst mahayanists than theravadans, although it's nowhere near as systematic or quantifiable.

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha » Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:09 pm

freedom wrote: As I understand, you lost your awareness for a while, then later you regained your awareness and realized that missing time (Correct me if I misunderstood you).
Yes. sometimes the awareness can be lost for hours. in other cases - for some minutes.
freedom wrote:What happens after you regain your awareness and perception?
When I regain my awareness, first of all there is a moment when "one divides in two" - subject and object of perception re-appear. Then, perception begins, but it's like spots of light and dark, something is seen, but there in no ideas about what it is. No labels for things. No dividing in different things. No thoughts at all. Calmness where "I-don't-know-who sees I-don't-know-what" ))) Then, very slowly comes the understanding about what are the things that are seen. At this stage I don't still know WHO I AM. Simply an awareness, that's all. Then, after a time, I come to remember who I am and where I am. Then, thoughts re-appear. And I think: "Oh, it's great, there was no ME again" ))) A feel renewed, like reborn after returning from there.
srivijaya wrote:There are two camps on the subject of jhana - those who claim awareness during jhana (jhana light) and those who claim no awareness at all - even in first jhana (jhana deep). Perhaps it's akin to the latter, though you seem to still have awareness of some kind in the preceding stages.
Yes, at the preceding stages I have very clear awareness.
As I know, in the Pali Canon there are many descriptions of the 4 jhanas. So, my experience totally corresponds to these descriptions... That's why I'd like too to understand what this unconscious state is.

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Mkoll » Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:16 pm

I'd suggest reading, or re-reading if that's the case, more of the suttas. You may find direction there about how to apply insight and wisdom to your situation.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Kumara » Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:25 am

Akhandha wrote:After some time when I return from this total absence I think it was the greatest thing I've even experienced. I think - great, I didn't exist again)))
Your like/desire non-existence?
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by IanAnd » Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:44 am

Akhandha wrote:
freedom wrote: As I understand, you lost your awareness for a while, then later you regained your awareness and realized that missing time (Correct me if I misunderstood you).
Yes. sometimes the awareness can be lost for hours. in other cases - for some minutes.
srivijaya wrote:There are two camps on the subject of jhana - those who claim awareness during jhana (jhana light) and those who claim no awareness at all - even in first jhana (jhana deep). Perhaps it's akin to the latter, though you seem to still have awareness of some kind in the preceding stages.
Yes, at the preceding stages I have very clear awareness.
As I know, in the Pali Canon there are many descriptions of the 4 jhanas. So, my experience totally corresponds to these descriptions... That's why I'd like too to understand what this unconscious state is.
This is something that only you are able to decide for yourself. You know what you experienced. No one can tell you that you didn't experience it, or that you are just imagining things. You yourself know.

Look up sanna-vedayita-nirodha and see if that definition fits the experience. If it does, then the only way to use it in your practice is to contemplate the effect it has on your understanding of the Dhamma. Those imploring you to "apply insight and wisdom to your situation" are in the right here.
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha » Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:03 am

Kumara wrote:
Akhandha wrote:After some time when I return from this total absence I think it was the greatest thing I've even experienced. I think - great, I didn't exist again)))
Your like/desire non-existence?
Not at all. I mean the experience itself is curious. It's like potential existence, the ROOT from which existence appears.
IanAnd wrote:Look up sanna-vedayita-nirodha and see if that definition fits the experience.
Thank you, I'll read and compare.

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Shuun » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:48 pm

Not sure about 'root of existence'...

But - are you sure you are not determining your mind to jump out of whatever that state is by having subtle or not subtle intention of rejoicing about it after you come out? Would that not incline mind into 'hurry up' attitude and such, preventing from longer lasting experience that could provide you with some more significance and chance for wholesome discernment after emerging? Have you perfected all Jhanas, being able to control their duration, enter and exit any with predetermination? Go 'up' and 'down' and turn around with confidence? Are you putting your mind toward some wholesome inspection into nature of reality just after you come out of it, so that malleable and bright mind is put to use?

Those questions are intended for answering to yourself.

May you be free from suffering :clap:

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Pondera » Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:52 am

Akhandha wrote:
Bakmoon wrote: After you come out of this state, what happens if you try to remember what it was like?
Impossible to remember anything because there is total absence of perception
no subject to perceive
indescribable, totally inconscient state
returning from it, the first thing that appears is conscience

One man told me that it's maybe asañña samapatti which can follow the 4th jhana
what do you think about it?
Does consciousness slip away? Then hearing?Then sights? Sounds and sights are still there, but don't register? Then all your karma leaves out your sacrum; your body goes into complete rapture and you suddenly have no perception of feeling or body? Space is infinite, but non-local? Time is infinite, but present moment? Awareness is distributed in all these limitless directions? Power is infinite?

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by atipattoh » Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:03 am

Goodday Akhandha!
just curious.
Akhandha wrote: I breathe "Bud-dho" with my attention fixed under my nose.
Which one lapse first, "Bud-dho" or "under nose" ?
Back to the stage before you enter this unconscious stage, how do you guide your consciousness, is it 'inward' as in 'sinking in' ?
Akhandha wrote: I do anapanasati lying on my back
Do you have back problem?
if not, don't do anapanasati lying on your back, not on chair or bed. The reason being one easily fall asleep without knowing and highly possible for one to continue meditating after 'waking up' not knowing he actually dozed off.
Akhandha wrote: sometimes I can see bright white light, then a very strange silence which absorbs me... then my mind becomes infinitely still and fixed. It can last for some hours. At that stage, there is only pure perception without any little thought. My body then is like penetrated with high voltage electricity. all my muscles are rigid like metal. I forget myself, my personality. Only still and fixed mind remains. After it, I come not to feel my body at all. Then, everything disappears. Total absence.
This is odd: 'all my muscles are rigid like metal'.
And this is not at the right place in sequence (afaik): ' I come not to feel my body at all' ; for this to be experience ' I can see bright white light '
For your sequence of experience that you described, chances is you have not forgotten your eyes.
No doubt the mind reach a positive level of stillness, but it is lacking of meditation object.

When you go to sleep at nite (i hope the ceilling of your room is white and moonlight shine in from window), relax and look at the ceilling in very dim moonlight environment, what do you see? A dark spot/cloud within the white colour of the ceilling or ?

On the expression of 'returning' path
Akhandha wrote: ..Then, perception begins, but it's like spots of light and dark, ..
Sounds like just experiencing parikamma nimitta. Since the meditation object is lost, parikamma nimita can not be cultivated further to uggaha nimita.

Above are just personal observation, not necessary to be the fact. It depend on you to verify.

Be well and happy sitting.
:anjali:

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha » Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:56 am

Good time, friends.
Shuun wrote:are you sure you are not determining your mind to jump out of whatever that state is by having subtle or not subtle intention of rejoicing about it after you come out?
No, I've not such intention. I can't even predict when this state wil come. Sometimes it comes as a result of meditation, sometimes - not.
Shuun wrote:Have you perfected all Jhanas, being able to control their duration, enter and exit any with predetermination?
It seems to to me, yes, I can. The 1st jhana with white light and bliss in my body demands some effort to stay in. But if I enter deeper, so there is no need of effort, clear awareness can last itself for hours.
It seems to me, most often I pass through jhanas TOO quickly, like a shot directed to this state of "total abscence". Because I don't want to investigate each level of jhana. Nevertheless, if I want to see each jhana, I can do it.
Shuun wrote: Are you putting your mind toward some wholesome inspection into nature of reality just after you come out of it, so that malleable and bright mind is put to use?
I investigate the nature of reality every moment, during the daytime while doing something and at night while "sleeping" or while beeing in "jhanas". It's like a habit.

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha » Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:06 am

Pondera wrote: your body goes into complete rapture and you suddenly have no perception of feeling or body?
Yes. That's it. Sometimes it goes just like that: like as I am drowned in this bliss and perception suddenly disappears.
In other cases, I can approach this state step by step and then perception dissapears.
Pondera wrote:Space is infinite, but non-local? Time is infinite, but present moment? Awareness is distributed in all these limitless directions? Power is infinite?
All this comes BEFORE the "total-absence".

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha » Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:36 am

atipattoh wrote:Goodday Akhandha!
just curious.
Akhandha wrote: I breathe "Bud-dho" with my attention fixed under my nose.
Which one lapse first, "Bud-dho" or "under nose" ?
Back to the stage before you enter this unconscious stage, how do you guide your consciousness, is it 'inward' as in 'sinking in' ?
Sorry, I haven't understood your question. Would you please ask in other words? Thanks.
atipattoh wrote: Do you have back problem?
if not, don't do anapanasati lying on your back, not on chair or bed. The reason being one easily fall asleep without knowing and highly possible for one to continue meditating after 'waking up' not knowing he actually dozed off.
Yes, I have back problems. I can't sit meditating long enough. While sitting, something strange has place. First, bliss in my body and I see (eyes closed) white light or colourful spots moving. Then begin very sudden pulls of body while for a moment I fall out of my body into infinite space. At this very little moment (1/4 of second) my body tries to fall and at the same time appear a very bright image - different image each time. Then I'm again in my body, I prevent it from falling and I continue my meditation. Then such pulls repeat after a period of time, regularly.
While lying on my back, there is no these sudden pulls.
atipattoh wrote: This is odd: 'all my muscles are rigid like metal'.
And this is not at the right place in sequence (afaik): ' I come not to feel my body at all' ; for this to be experience ' I can see bright white light '
For your sequence of experience that you described, chances is you have not forgotten your eyes.
No doubt the mind reach a positive level of stillness, but it is lacking of meditation object.
When I feel bliss in my body, sure I feel the body. And when comes another level, with very concentrated mind, so then I don't feel my body if I don't move it. If I want to move it, I find it's very hard to do, because the body is very rigid. Like if all my blood had stopped moving in.
atipattoh wrote: When you go to sleep at nite (i hope the ceilling of your room is white and moonlight shine in from window), relax and look at the ceilling in very dim moonlight environment, what do you see? A dark spot/cloud within the white colour of the ceilling or ?
I see an eye that moves. Like an eye of a living person. It can approach, I can enter into it...

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