jhanas and nirodha?...

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Akhandha
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha » Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:35 am

Pondera wrote: Unfortunately, I cannot see a difference between what you describe and the experience of going unconscious!
Of course, unconcious. Nirodha is an unconcious state, isn't it?
About what consciousness can we say if there is no perceptioon there?

Let's look at this curious text: (It's curious for me too)

link - http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... .-piya.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

7.2.2 True renunciation. The purpose of Buddhist mind-training is to learn to gradually let go of more and more consciousness. First, we let go of the distractions from the sense-doors; then we close the 5 physical sense-doors themselves (through samadhi). Then, directly experiencing the mind through dhyana, we allow mind-consciousness to cease. This is the true meaning of renunciation, the inner letting-go.
Brahmavamso explains this important process thus:
The whole purpose of these jhānas is to learn through practice, bit by bit, to let go of more and more consciousness. It‘s like slicing away at mind consciousness. Allowing consciousness to cease, by calming it, settling it, and allowing it to go to cessation. Then the consciousness com-pletely ceases for long periods of time in what‘s called nirodha-samapatti (the attainment of cess-ation). This is the cessation of all that is felt and all that‘s perceived (saa-vedayita-nirodha). Any person who experiences this attainment, they say, will be an arahant or an anagami after-wards. Why? Because they‘ve seen the end of consciousness, they‘ve touched that as an experi-ence. (Brahmavamso 2001:5, digital ed)

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by perkele » Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:33 pm

Maybe this could be helpful? :shrug:
MN 111: One after another wrote:
...

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
So maybe the practical advice here, "emerging mindfully from that attainment" and "reviewing the past qualities that have ceased and changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.'", again and again, rinse and repeat, until finally one day
Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment.
Just some text I happened upon randomly. Thought it might fit here.

I don't know. I'm not an anagami.

:broke:

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha » Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:25 pm

perkele

Thank you for te text.

I've got all different ideas about this state of "cessation":
1) It is very comfortable, it's a real rest.
2) It's really curious, in reality nothing exists.
3) It's totally unconcious. What's good in it?... What's good in feeling and perceing nothing?
4) Why do the buddhists long to attain this state? if (see p.3) and if Parinibbana is an end of existence.
5) I don't want to disappear like this, for eternity
6) I doubt Parinibbana will last eternally. The world will make the awareness appear again.

I will be very grateful if anybody will be able to explain to me what I've misundertood. :anjali:

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Mkoll » Fri Mar 13, 2015 5:20 pm

Akhandha wrote:perkele

Thank you for te text.

I've got all different ideas about this state of "cessation":
1) It is very comfortable, it's a real rest.
2) It's really curious, in reality nothing exists.
3) It's totally unconcious. What's good in it?... What's good in feeling and perceing nothing?
4) Why do the buddhists long to attain this state? if (see p.3) and if Parinibbana is an end of existence.
5) I don't want to disappear like this, for eternity
6) I doubt Parinibbana will last eternally. The world will make the awareness appear again.

I will be very grateful if anybody will be able to explain to me what I've misundertood. :anjali:
What I think you've misunderstood is that you don't recognize you're holding two mutually exclusive views. You don't know that you've attained this state that is described in the suttas as "the cessation of perception and feeling," yet you talk as if you do. Why do I think this? You made this very thread expressing your puzzlement as to whether you've attained this state, yet you also speak as though you know you've attained it ("Why do the buddhists long to attain this state?").

I think that to clear up this misunderstanding, you should discern very clearly between what you believe and what you know.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Pondera » Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:12 am

Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment.
I think "entrance" into cessation is "conditioned" by non-grasping. Someone can enter on the basis of non-grasping and emerge on the intentional will to grasp at perception and feeling.

It's curious though. "He emerged mindfully.." - this does not necessarily mean that he remained in the attainment mindfully.

"Seeing with discernment" - tends to imply that awareness is present in cessation. It also implies that "seeing with discernment" is the faculty of "remaining in cessation".

For me, this entails that cessation is accompanied by "cognition". Otherwise, how would anyone see with discernment that the fermentations have ended?

The curious case of "non-perception" lingers. But, Buddhists adamantly defend their religion against nihilism. I can attest to "experiencing nothingness" - Just an empty, nausiating feelig which is hard to bare.

I usually fall asleep without knowing it. But I have had a taste of hypnogognia here and there. I didn't develop the "fortitude" as a child to stare it in the face from consciousness to dreaming. But I assume it is possible to do so fully mindful.

I'm sorry OP. I have little else in terms of answers. Happy searching!

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha » Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:06 am

Mkoll wrote: What I think you've misunderstood is that you don't recognize you're holding two mutually exclusive views. You don't know that you've attained this state that is described in the suttas as "the cessation of perception and feeling," yet you talk as if you do. Why do I think this? You made this very thread expressing your puzzlement as to whether you've attained this state, yet you also speak as though you know you've attained it ("Why do the buddhists long to attain this state?").

I think that to clear up this misunderstanding, you should discern very clearly between what you believe and what you know.
I see quite well that there are mutually exclusive views. It's because it seems to me really have attained nirodha, but I'm not 100% sure of it. So to tell, I have doubt and many questions which I can't make clear without other experienced persons who would tell me exactly what it is))

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha » Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:52 am

Pondera wrote: It's curious though. "He emerged mindfully.." - this does not necessarily mean that he remained in the attainment mindfully.
"Seeing with discernment" - tends to imply that awareness is present in cessation. It also implies that "seeing with discernment" is the faculty of "remaining in cessation".
What mindfullness can be while any perception has ceased?
The moment of reappearing of the conciousness is seen with discernment AT THE MOMENT WHEN I emerge from cessation (if it's really a cessation, of course).
Pondera wrote: For me, this entails that cessation is accompanied by "cognition". Otherwise, how would anyone see with discernment that the fermentations have ended?
The end of fermetations is clearly seen BERORE the cessation. And after it, while emerging from it, there is some time when fermentations haven't begun yet.
Pondera wrote: I usually fall asleep without knowing it. But I have had a taste of hypnogognia here and there. I didn't develop the "fortitude" as a child to stare it in the face from consciousness to dreaming. But I assume it is possible to do so fully mindful.
Yes, I can go into sleep in full awareness. But the awareness in this case goes on while sleeping, no cessation.
Pondera wrote: I'm sorry OP. I have little else in terms of answers. Happy searching!
Thank you very much for your comments :anjali:

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by 333 » Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:28 am

In my opinion, it doesn't matter what the meditative state is called - it sounds like an advanced meditative state to me and so you are doing something right. I would say nearly noone on this site has experienced the same and so, cannot accurately tell you what you are experiencing. It sounds like a jhana between 6 and 9. Being able to experience high jhanas is incredible progress and I think you should continue without doubt; maybe you will come to experience nibbana. I think needing a definitive explanation is a mistake. :buddha1:
To Avoid All Evil,
To Cultivate Only Good,
And To Purify One's Mind
This Is The Teaching Of All The Buddhas!
-Dhammapada 183

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by akaliko » Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:35 pm

Hi there Akhandha; I just joined because I read your posts and thought I might be able to help.

The way that you use language, the values implicit in your speech suggest that your experience is one of cessation, you are on the right path, and you will now tend to nibbana.

This might be useful:
Knowing directly the origin of nothingness to be the fetter of delight, one then sees there clearly. That's his genuine knowledge — the brahman who has lived to fulfillment.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's the idea or sense of absence and presence, existence and non-existence, that is the structure of what we may regard as impermanence, and this unstable polarity is dukkha, incompleteness.

The wheel of suffering turns on this incompleteness, this conundrum - I want to experience, I don't want to experience, to be or not to be. It is a sense of rejecting experience, rejecting life, wanting it to be other.

So, speaking of the dhamma gate you have entered, one finally takes up Buddhism to follow this sense of incompleteness, this voidness, through the jhanas to cessation, to escape; we turn ourselves inside out so to speak but find no final bliss or void, no complete being or end of being, no goal or escape, not even nothing, and in this knowledge of the inapplicability of the extremes of existence and non-existence, dukkha, the sense of incompleteness, suffering, cannot persist, because we have realised there is no goal, no escape. All that dies then is the path, the seeking of either perfection or escape, life or death.

We now know that to speak of the existence or non-existence of being, self, life, is just speech: of unfolding life as it is lived, absence doesn't apply, presence doesn't apply, both absence and presence doesn't apply, neither absence nor presence doesn't apply. The Tathagata is deep, boundless like the sea.

Experience is not a physical thing with physical dimensions, there's no up or down here, no long and short, coarse and fine, fair and foul, light and dark, sun and moon; water, earth, fire and wind have no footing here, nor can experience be born or die; it comes from no past, it goes to no future, nor does it persist; life is unborn, uncreated, beyond cause and conjecture. None of the descriptors we use in Buddhism to speak of experience, such as consciousness, kandhas and so on, can apply to experience; they apply to our illusions about experience. Buddhism is a conceit to end conceit. We can't even point to experience as an object, label suchness experience, or life (or suchness). But of course we can speak, as skillfully as we may.

The significance of Nirodha Sammapatti, the journey to the edge of the map of perception, tipping over what appears to be an edge, then back to the start, is that it shows us that there is no foundation, no destination, no absolute, not even the absence of an absolute, no permanence of bliss or void of death. That there is no polarity of life and death, or in other words, because here we are, there is only life, no death. And that understanding is what the Buddha called deathless, beyond bliss.

I think you're doing fine, anyway. :namaste: I hope this was helpful; I'm still learning myself, but I recognise your experience and the way you seem to regard that experience, the questions it has led you to form, so this is my response for what it is worth.

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by ubeysekaramapa » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:27 am

RE;Akhanda's question which I have copied (Pl see below)

[quote]While meditating, I often get to a state when any perception stops, mind stops, where there is no more me and world, everything dissapears. There is no
All I can tell about this state - it's total absence.

Before it, at the beginning of the meditation, I usually feel waves of bliss in my body, my breath seems to stop at all, sometimes I can see bright white light, then a very strange silence which absorbs me... then my mind becomes infinitely still and fixed. It can last for some hours. At that stage, there is only pure perception without any little thought. My body then is like penetrated with high voltage electricity. all my muscles are rigid like metal. I forget myself, my personality. Only still and fixed mind remains. After it, I come not to feel my body at all. Then, everything disappears. Total absence.

After some time when I return from this total absence I think it was the greatest thing I've even experienced. I think - great, I didn't exist again))) This total absence becomes more and more frequent in my meditation.
Returning has the same stages, inverse order.

My question is: are these states jhanas and nirodha-samapatti, or what are they?[quote]


First of all you must go to a teacher who has experience in meditation.

It appears that: you are either hallucinating or unable to know your stage; because if you are in NIRODHA you can know that you are in NIRODHA SAMAPATHTHI.

vipassana, is SATI- the order is Sila, Smadhi, Panna and thereafter, proceed on stai. samadhi, panna. Even in the seven enlightening factors (sapta Bojjanga) SATI is the first, and so is in panca bala, and panca indriya. Entire process of Vipassana is awareness.

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by ubeysekaramapa » Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:50 am

I would advice you to read Culavedalla Sutta in MN- specially refer 'The Attainment of Cessation'.

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha » Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:26 pm

Thanks to everyone for the comments.

I haven't been here for a long time. So, I'm here again.

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Dmytro » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:37 am

Akhandha wrote:
Pondera wrote: Unfortunately, I cannot see a difference between what you describe and the experience of going unconscious!
Of course, unconcious. Nirodha is an unconcious state, isn't it?
"Nirodha" is a modern conflation of "nirodha-samapatti" and 'Nirodha" as an epithet of Nibbana.

This conflation brings about confusion.
About what consciousness can we say if there is no perceptioon there?
In "nirodha-samapatti", also called "saññā-vedayita-nirodha", "saññā" (recognition, also translated as 'perception") ceases.

'Saññā' is more complicated than 'perception' in mundane sense of this word, see: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2834
7.2.2 True renunciation. The purpose of Buddhist mind-training is to learn to gradually let go of more and more consciousness. First, we let go of the distractions from the sense-doors; then we close the 5 physical sense-doors themselves (through samadhi). Then, directly experiencing the mind through dhyana, we allow mind-consciousness to cease. This is the true meaning of renunciation, the inner letting-go.
Brahmavamso explains this important process thus:
The whole purpose of these jhānas is to learn through practice, bit by bit, to let go of more and more consciousness. It‘s like slicing away at mind consciousness. Allowing consciousness to cease, by calming it, settling it, and allowing it to go to cessation. Then the consciousness com-pletely ceases for long periods of time in what‘s called nirodha-samapatti (the attainment of cess-ation). This is the cessation of all that is felt and all that‘s perceived (saa-vedayita-nirodha). Any person who experiences this attainment, they say, will be an arahant or an anagami after-wards. Why? Because they‘ve seen the end of consciousness, they‘ve touched that as an experi-ence. (Brahmavamso 2001:5, digital ed)
I strongly disagree with this position of Brahmavamso. You may find useful an extensive discussion of his approach at:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7360
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 39#p119639

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Dmytro » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:44 am

While meditating, I often get to a state when any perception stops, mind stops, where there is no more me and world, everything dissapears. There is no
All I can tell about this state - it's total absence.

Before it, at the beginning of the meditation, I usually feel waves of bliss in my body, my breath seems to stop at all, sometimes I can see bright white light, then a very strange silence which absorbs me... then my mind becomes infinitely still and fixed. It can last for some hours. At that stage, there is only pure perception without any little thought. My body then is like penetrated with high voltage electricity. all my muscles are rigid like metal. I forget myself, my personality. Only still and fixed mind remains. After it, I come not to feel my body at all. Then, everything disappears. Total absence.

After some time when I return from this total absence I think it was the greatest thing I've even experienced. I think - great, I didn't exist again))) This total absence becomes more and more frequent in my meditation.
Returning has the same stages, inverse order.

My question is: are these states jhanas and nirodha-samapatti, or what are they?
This strongly reminds me of "asaññā-samāpatti" or similar.

Ven. Dhammanando wrote about this state: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 9&p=371126

See also: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 9&p=272085
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 0&p=113882

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha » Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:11 pm

Hi, Dmytro.

I've read the attaced file given by Bhante Dhammanando in the topic by your link above.
What I found there is:

Those who have received but do not yet believe in the teachings on the Storing
Consciousness, if they are born in the
rüpyE (realms), will not produce this
(nirodha)samäpatti,
since they will be afraid that the absence of rüpa and citta will entail
their utter annihilation. If they already believe, then when born into those
(realms) they will be able to experience (this
samäpatti),
knowing that, because
the Store Consciousness exists, there is no annihilation.

That's interesting. I really have ideas about possible annihilation and it makes me afraid. Maybe it causes my getting assanna-samapatti?
Does it follow from this quotation that an Arahant after death has some type of Consciousness? If yes, I don't understand then why it is said everywhere that all the khandhas are to stop? Isn't any type of consciuosness a khandha??
I cant still understand the difference between assanna and nirodha samapattis. Is there any consciousness in the nirodha?

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Dmytro » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:13 pm

Hi Akhandha,
Akhandha wrote:That's interesting. I really have ideas about possible annihilation and it makes me afraid. Maybe it causes my getting assanna-samapatti?
You may find useful the following advice:
The best state of concentration for the sake of developing all-around insight is one that encompasses a whole-body awareness. There were two exceptions to Ajaan Fuang's usual practice of not identifying the state you had attained in your practice, and both involved states of wrong concentration. The first was the state that comes when the breath gets so comfortable that your focus drifts from the breath to the sense of comfort itself, your mindfulness begins to blur, and your sense of the body and your surroundings gets lost in a pleasant haze. When you emerge, you find it hard to identify where exactly you were focused. Ajaan Fuang called this moha-samadhi, or delusion-concentration.

The second state was one I happened to hit one night when my concentration was extremely one-pointed, and so refined that it refused settle on or label even the most fleeting mental objects. I dropped into a state in which I lost all sense of the body, of any internal/external sounds, or of any thoughts or perceptions at all — although there was just enough tiny awareness to let me know, when I emerged, that I hadn't been asleep. I found that I could stay there for many hours, and yet time would pass very quickly. Two hours would seem like two minutes. I could also "program" myself to come out at a particular time.

After hitting this state several nights in a row, I told Ajaan Fuang about it, and his first question was, "Do you like it?" My answer was "No," because I felt a little groggy the first time I came out. "Good," he said. "As long as you don't like it, you're safe. Some people really like it and think it's nibbana or cessation. Actually, it's the state of non-perception (asaññi-bhava). It's not even right concentration, because there's no way you can investigate anything in there to gain any sort of discernment. But it does have other uses." He then told me of the time he had undergone kidney surgery and, not trusting the anesthesiologist, had put himself in that state for the duration of the operation.

In both these states of wrong concentration, the limited range of awareness was what made them wrong. If whole areas of your awareness are blocked off, how can you gain all-around insight? And as I've noticed in years since, people adept at blotting out large areas of awareness through powerful one-pointedness also tend to be psychologically adept at dissociation and denial. This is why Ajaan Fuang, following Ajaan Lee, taught a form of breath meditation that aimed at an all-around awareness of the breath energy throughout the body, playing with it to gain a sense of ease, and then calming it so that it wouldn't interfere with a clear vision of the subtle movements of the mind. This all-around awareness helped to eliminate the blind spots where ignorance likes to lurk.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... mbers.html
Akhandha wrote:Does it follow from this quotation that an Arahant after death has some type of Consciousness?
No. it's undescribable in terms of consciousness.
Akhandha wrote:I cant still understand the difference between assanna and nirodha samapattis. Is there any consciousness in the nirodha?
Probably yes. From the description in Vimuttimagga:

https://archive.org/stream/ArahantUpato ... /mode/2up/

it seems that there's an object (of consciousness), Nibbana (Unborn and Unmanifest).

In this regard "nirodha-samapatti" seems similar to supramundane concentration (lokuttara-jhana).
"And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

But there is more to be said. When we attend closely to these texts, we see that a degree of flexibility is already built into them. In the analysis of the faculties at SN 48:9-10/V 197-98, the first sutta offers an alternative definition of the faculty of concentration that does not mention the four jhānas, while the following sutta gives both definitions conjointly. The alternative version runs thus: "And what, monks, is the faculty of concentration? Here, monks, a noble disciple gains concentration, gains one-pointedness of mind, having made release the object. This is called the faculty of concentration."[13]

The Nikāyas themselves nowhere explain exactly what is meant by the concentration gained by "having made release the object" (vossaggārammaṇaṃ karitvā), but they do elsewhere suggest that release (vossagga) is a term for Nibbāna.[14] The Commentary interprets this passage with the aid of the distinction between mundane (lokiya) and supramundane (lokuttara) concentration: the former consists in the form-sphere jhānas (and the access to these jhānas), the latter in the supramundane jhānas concomitant with the supramundane path.[15] On the basis of this distinction, the Commentary explains "the concentration that makes release the object" as the supramundane concentration of the noble path arisen with Nibbāna as object.[16] Thus if we feel obliged to interpret the faculty and power of concentration in the light of the jhāna formula, we might go along with the Commentary in regarding it as the supramundane jhāna pertaining to the supramundane path and fruit.

However, we need not agree with the Commentaries in taking the expression "having made release the object" so literally. We might instead interpret this phrase more loosely as characterizing a concentration aimed at release, that is, directed towards Nibbāna.[17] Then we can understand its referent as the concentration that functions as the basis for insight, both initially in the preparatory phase of practice and later in immediate conjunction with insight. This would allow us to ascribe to the noble disciple a degree of concentration strong enough to qualify as a faculty without compelling us to hold that he must possess jhāna. Perhaps the combined definition of the concentration faculty in SN 48:10 is intended to show that two courses are open to disciples. One is the route emphasizing strong concentration, along which one develops the jhānas as the faculty of concentration; the other is the route emphasizing insight, along which one develops concentration only to the degree needed for insight to arise. This concentration, though falling short of jhāna, could still be described as "concentration that makes release its object."

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books10/Bhik ... ple%20.htm

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