jhanas and nirodha?...

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
ubeysekaramapa
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by ubeysekaramapa » Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:50 am

I would advice you to read Culavedalla Sutta in MN- specially refer 'The Attainment of Cessation'.

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Akhandha
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha » Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:26 pm

Thanks to everyone for the comments.

I haven't been here for a long time. So, I'm here again.

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Dmytro
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Dmytro » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:37 am

Akhandha wrote:
Pondera wrote: Unfortunately, I cannot see a difference between what you describe and the experience of going unconscious!
Of course, unconcious. Nirodha is an unconcious state, isn't it?
"Nirodha" is a modern conflation of "nirodha-samapatti" and 'Nirodha" as an epithet of Nibbana.

This conflation brings about confusion.
About what consciousness can we say if there is no perceptioon there?
In "nirodha-samapatti", also called "saññā-vedayita-nirodha", "saññā" (recognition, also translated as 'perception") ceases.

'Saññā' is more complicated than 'perception' in mundane sense of this word, see: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2834
7.2.2 True renunciation. The purpose of Buddhist mind-training is to learn to gradually let go of more and more consciousness. First, we let go of the distractions from the sense-doors; then we close the 5 physical sense-doors themselves (through samadhi). Then, directly experiencing the mind through dhyana, we allow mind-consciousness to cease. This is the true meaning of renunciation, the inner letting-go.
Brahmavamso explains this important process thus:
The whole purpose of these jhānas is to learn through practice, bit by bit, to let go of more and more consciousness. It‘s like slicing away at mind consciousness. Allowing consciousness to cease, by calming it, settling it, and allowing it to go to cessation. Then the consciousness com-pletely ceases for long periods of time in what‘s called nirodha-samapatti (the attainment of cess-ation). This is the cessation of all that is felt and all that‘s perceived (saa-vedayita-nirodha). Any person who experiences this attainment, they say, will be an arahant or an anagami after-wards. Why? Because they‘ve seen the end of consciousness, they‘ve touched that as an experi-ence. (Brahmavamso 2001:5, digital ed)
I strongly disagree with this position of Brahmavamso. You may find useful an extensive discussion of his approach at:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7360
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 39#p119639

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Dmytro
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Dmytro » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:44 am

While meditating, I often get to a state when any perception stops, mind stops, where there is no more me and world, everything dissapears. There is no
All I can tell about this state - it's total absence.

Before it, at the beginning of the meditation, I usually feel waves of bliss in my body, my breath seems to stop at all, sometimes I can see bright white light, then a very strange silence which absorbs me... then my mind becomes infinitely still and fixed. It can last for some hours. At that stage, there is only pure perception without any little thought. My body then is like penetrated with high voltage electricity. all my muscles are rigid like metal. I forget myself, my personality. Only still and fixed mind remains. After it, I come not to feel my body at all. Then, everything disappears. Total absence.

After some time when I return from this total absence I think it was the greatest thing I've even experienced. I think - great, I didn't exist again))) This total absence becomes more and more frequent in my meditation.
Returning has the same stages, inverse order.

My question is: are these states jhanas and nirodha-samapatti, or what are they?
This strongly reminds me of "asaññā-samāpatti" or similar.

Ven. Dhammanando wrote about this state: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 9&p=371126

See also: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 9&p=272085
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 0&p=113882

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Akhandha
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha » Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:11 pm

Hi, Dmytro.

I've read the attaced file given by Bhante Dhammanando in the topic by your link above.
What I found there is:

Those who have received but do not yet believe in the teachings on the Storing
Consciousness, if they are born in the
rüpyE (realms), will not produce this
(nirodha)samäpatti,
since they will be afraid that the absence of rüpa and citta will entail
their utter annihilation. If they already believe, then when born into those
(realms) they will be able to experience (this
samäpatti),
knowing that, because
the Store Consciousness exists, there is no annihilation.

That's interesting. I really have ideas about possible annihilation and it makes me afraid. Maybe it causes my getting assanna-samapatti?
Does it follow from this quotation that an Arahant after death has some type of Consciousness? If yes, I don't understand then why it is said everywhere that all the khandhas are to stop? Isn't any type of consciuosness a khandha??
I cant still understand the difference between assanna and nirodha samapattis. Is there any consciousness in the nirodha?

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Dmytro
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Dmytro » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:13 pm

Hi Akhandha,
Akhandha wrote:That's interesting. I really have ideas about possible annihilation and it makes me afraid. Maybe it causes my getting assanna-samapatti?
You may find useful the following advice:
The best state of concentration for the sake of developing all-around insight is one that encompasses a whole-body awareness. There were two exceptions to Ajaan Fuang's usual practice of not identifying the state you had attained in your practice, and both involved states of wrong concentration. The first was the state that comes when the breath gets so comfortable that your focus drifts from the breath to the sense of comfort itself, your mindfulness begins to blur, and your sense of the body and your surroundings gets lost in a pleasant haze. When you emerge, you find it hard to identify where exactly you were focused. Ajaan Fuang called this moha-samadhi, or delusion-concentration.

The second state was one I happened to hit one night when my concentration was extremely one-pointed, and so refined that it refused settle on or label even the most fleeting mental objects. I dropped into a state in which I lost all sense of the body, of any internal/external sounds, or of any thoughts or perceptions at all — although there was just enough tiny awareness to let me know, when I emerged, that I hadn't been asleep. I found that I could stay there for many hours, and yet time would pass very quickly. Two hours would seem like two minutes. I could also "program" myself to come out at a particular time.

After hitting this state several nights in a row, I told Ajaan Fuang about it, and his first question was, "Do you like it?" My answer was "No," because I felt a little groggy the first time I came out. "Good," he said. "As long as you don't like it, you're safe. Some people really like it and think it's nibbana or cessation. Actually, it's the state of non-perception (asaññi-bhava). It's not even right concentration, because there's no way you can investigate anything in there to gain any sort of discernment. But it does have other uses." He then told me of the time he had undergone kidney surgery and, not trusting the anesthesiologist, had put himself in that state for the duration of the operation.

In both these states of wrong concentration, the limited range of awareness was what made them wrong. If whole areas of your awareness are blocked off, how can you gain all-around insight? And as I've noticed in years since, people adept at blotting out large areas of awareness through powerful one-pointedness also tend to be psychologically adept at dissociation and denial. This is why Ajaan Fuang, following Ajaan Lee, taught a form of breath meditation that aimed at an all-around awareness of the breath energy throughout the body, playing with it to gain a sense of ease, and then calming it so that it wouldn't interfere with a clear vision of the subtle movements of the mind. This all-around awareness helped to eliminate the blind spots where ignorance likes to lurk.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... mbers.html
Akhandha wrote:Does it follow from this quotation that an Arahant after death has some type of Consciousness?
No. it's undescribable in terms of consciousness.
Akhandha wrote:I cant still understand the difference between assanna and nirodha samapattis. Is there any consciousness in the nirodha?
Probably yes. From the description in Vimuttimagga:

https://archive.org/stream/ArahantUpato ... /mode/2up/

it seems that there's an object (of consciousness), Nibbana (Unborn and Unmanifest).

In this regard "nirodha-samapatti" seems similar to supramundane concentration (lokuttara-jhana).
"And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

But there is more to be said. When we attend closely to these texts, we see that a degree of flexibility is already built into them. In the analysis of the faculties at SN 48:9-10/V 197-98, the first sutta offers an alternative definition of the faculty of concentration that does not mention the four jhānas, while the following sutta gives both definitions conjointly. The alternative version runs thus: "And what, monks, is the faculty of concentration? Here, monks, a noble disciple gains concentration, gains one-pointedness of mind, having made release the object. This is called the faculty of concentration."[13]

The Nikāyas themselves nowhere explain exactly what is meant by the concentration gained by "having made release the object" (vossaggārammaṇaṃ karitvā), but they do elsewhere suggest that release (vossagga) is a term for Nibbāna.[14] The Commentary interprets this passage with the aid of the distinction between mundane (lokiya) and supramundane (lokuttara) concentration: the former consists in the form-sphere jhānas (and the access to these jhānas), the latter in the supramundane jhānas concomitant with the supramundane path.[15] On the basis of this distinction, the Commentary explains "the concentration that makes release the object" as the supramundane concentration of the noble path arisen with Nibbāna as object.[16] Thus if we feel obliged to interpret the faculty and power of concentration in the light of the jhāna formula, we might go along with the Commentary in regarding it as the supramundane jhāna pertaining to the supramundane path and fruit.

However, we need not agree with the Commentaries in taking the expression "having made release the object" so literally. We might instead interpret this phrase more loosely as characterizing a concentration aimed at release, that is, directed towards Nibbāna.[17] Then we can understand its referent as the concentration that functions as the basis for insight, both initially in the preparatory phase of practice and later in immediate conjunction with insight. This would allow us to ascribe to the noble disciple a degree of concentration strong enough to qualify as a faculty without compelling us to hold that he must possess jhāna. Perhaps the combined definition of the concentration faculty in SN 48:10 is intended to show that two courses are open to disciples. One is the route emphasizing strong concentration, along which one develops the jhānas as the faculty of concentration; the other is the route emphasizing insight, along which one develops concentration only to the degree needed for insight to arise. This concentration, though falling short of jhāna, could still be described as "concentration that makes release its object."

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books10/Bhik ... ple%20.htm

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