Jhanas and Hindrances

[Weakfocus]

So I wonder, where is this repetitive structure of misunderstanding coming from?

Ignorance of the people who misunderstand and then spread their misunderstanding to others as wisdom?

How many people who contest these jhana versus 'dry-insight' issues on internet are actually practicing anapanasati or vipassana daily? And how many can truthfully claim to have attained sufficient level of concenteration with anapanasati to even practice vipassana properly (observe sensations throughout the body, not just on skin)?

Reminds one of the blind men and an elephant.

daverupa: Goenka practitioners don't know that.

As a student of Goenakji I personally do not find jhana and vipassana to be at odds, even though Goenkaji does not talk about about jhana (IIRC, could be wrong) in the 10-day course. Oh sure, when I first read about jhana, I felt that Goenkaji should have touched on that in his discourses. I felt as if something important had been left out.

But over time I realize that this was my own ignorance. The format and time limit of the course means that most people will not attain jhana in a 10-day retreat anyway. So instead of talking about a hard-to-attain state Goenkaji's teaching jumps to something students can experience: sensations. And how to work with these sensations to attain wisdom.

And just because Goenkaji does not elaborate on jhana in his 10-day course does not mean he is somehow opposed to the practice of mindfulness. In fact, during the course he emphasizes the importance of developing a strong, penetrating concenteration, and to come back to anapanasati whenever it becomes difficult to observe sensations without reacting. Goenkaji also clearly states how the 10-day course is a first step, a bare-minimum introduction to the path. Students can always come back for longer courses (in which there is discussion of jhana from what I have read online, although I have not taken part in a 20-day or longer course as yet).

So the broad framework of the teaching is solid. Live a moral life, develop concenteration, observe the truth (annica, annata etc). If some student feels a need for developing stronger concenteration, they can always practice anapanasati for months/years in their daily practice. Then they might attain jhana, or develop strong enough concenteration to practice vipassana in depth even without having attained jhana.

[daverupa]

And yet most of the commentaries I've read on the Anapanasati Sutta tetrads effectively describe a progression from samatha to vipassana, with jhana early on in the progression. IMO it's more reminiscent of this progression: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html.

The progression found in e.g. MN 118 discusses the practice as being founded on satipatthana, which is appropriate given the way the eightfold path is set up as well as the common Nikaya progression as found in e.g. MN 125, where satipatthana follows guarding the sense gates and precedes seated hindrance scrubbing, which leads into jhana.

Overall, jhana follows as a development from satipatthana; the awakening factors are opposed to the hindrances, and this interface of development is what facilitates attaining jhana, which is marked by the relevant factors.

Perhaps we should look more closely at the purpose of developing jhana, and the corresponding awakening factors?

From MN 118 we see that we are to develop each of the the seven awakening factors "as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. This is how the seven factors for awakening are developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination."

Notice how these developmental dependencies look a lot like the instructions for the fourth tetrad of anapanasati...

[fivebells]

Weakfocus: Maybe. My assertion is based on an unpleasant interaction with the teacher at a Goenka retreat, but it's possible that he was unrepresentative of the movement or I misunderstood.

[Anagarika]

This article discusses "dry insight" or vipassana without jhana. http://www.vipassanadhura.com/jhana.html The article makes some very good points, and it is true that the practice of insight/vipassana without jhanic concentration is very valuable. We know, for example, that in the medical community people are being trained to implement insight meditation without jhana for pain management, PTSD alleviation, and many other purposes. To require jhana before experiencing insight would put this practice on a high shelf that few laypeople could initially reach.

But, I'm going to stick to my guns and suggest that jhana itself is expressed as the atom (carbon, for example), with samatha as the nucleus and vipassana as electrons ....I believe that Ajahn Geoff may have expressed it as being like a bird with only one wing, flying in circles...the two wings of samatha and vipassana are the elements of jhana, and cannot "fly" correctly without each other, or operate fully independently of each other.

A technical distinction to be sure, but it seems to me that when the Buddha admonished "go, do jhana," the task was for the monks to cultivate this practice at its most complex form, and the form that places one on the path to release. YMMV.

[Spiny Norman]

Overall, jhana follows as a development from satipatthana; the awakening factors are opposed to the hindrances, and this interface of development is what facilitates attaining jhana, which is marked by the relevant factors.

I think there are different ways of looking at it, Dave. I agree that the awakening factors are opposed to the hindrances, but would also observe that there is a strong correlation between the awakening factors and the absorption factors of jhana - so by implication the purpose of jhana can be seen as getting rid of the hindrances.
I was looking at this sutta while ago, it appears early in the Chapter of the Twos in the Anguttara Nikaya. It describes how samatha leads to the abandonment of lust ( a proxy for the hindrances ), and how vipassana leads to the abandonment of ignorance. If we view jhana as the fullfilment of samatha, then this means that jhana leads to the abandonment of the hindrances.

Tranquillity and Insight
Two things, O monks, partake of supreme knowledge. What two? Tranquillity and insight.
If tranquillity is developed, what benefit does it bring? The mind becomes developed. And
what is the benefit of a developed mind? All lust is abandoned.
If insight is developed, what benefit does it bring? Wisdom becomes developed. And what is
the benefit of developed wisdom? All ignorance is abandoned.
A mind defiled by lust is not freed; and wisdom defiled by ignorance cannot develop. Thus,
monks, through the fading away of lust there is liberation of mind; and through the fading away
of ignorance there is liberation by wisdom.
(2:2.10)

[Spiny Norman]

I believe that Ajahn Geoff may have expressed it as being like a bird with only one wing, flying in circles...the two wings of samatha and vipassana are the elements of jhana, and cannot "fly" correctly without each other, or operate fully independently of each other.

I think it was "Wings of awakening" rather than "wings of jhana". So samatha and vipassana are both necessary for awakening, but I'd suggest that jhana is a development of samatha rather than vipassana.

[daverupa]

...

We seem to agree in the meaning, and differ merely in the phrasing. This is something for us to see as silly. So - well spoken!

[barcsimalsi]

From MN 118 we see that we are to develop each of the the seven awakening factors "as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. This is how the seven factors for awakening are developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination."

Notice how these developmental dependencies look a lot like the instructions for the fourth tetrad of anapanasati...

"[7] He carefully watches the mind thus concentrated with equanimity. When he carefully watches the mind thus concentrated with equanimity, equanimity as a factor for awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development.

It is say that anapanasati practice fulfills both samatha and vipassana but when re-look at its instruction from the sutta, i don’t see any part of the tetrad says focus on one point or stick to the breath to develop concentration so at which point or what condition does ekaggata manifest?

[daverupa]

at which point or what condition does ekaggata manifest?

It doesn't. What manifests is ekodi-bhavam in the second jhana, which is unification of mind, but this only with the cessation of vitakka-vicara, which is otherwise present in first jhana.

[barcsimalsi]

at which point or what condition does ekaggata manifest?

It doesn't. What manifests is ekodi-bhavam in the second jhana, which is unification of mind, but this only with the cessation of vitakka-vicara, which is otherwise present in first jhana.

Thanks for explaining, i never heard of ekodi-bhavam so googled and found this site:
Five Factors for the First Jhana - NOT!
It makes sense and if this happens to be, then attaining first jhana isn't so hard after all but can it be another controversial subject as it was dismissing some point from the sutta itself?

[daverupa]

can it be another controversial subject

It sure can. There are many threads about the jhana factors; it's probably best to let this one focus on the interplay of the hindrances and jhana, which offers a well-constrained topic.

[barcsimalsi]

can it be another controversial subject

It sure can. There are many threads about the jhana factors; it's probably best to let this one focus on the interplay of the hindrances and jhana, which offers a well-constrained topic.

Fine.
Back to topic, whether it is samatha or vipassana, the point is the hindrances must be skillfully abandon first before one can develop jhana rather than hoping to jump into jhana by luck or special method and wake up like an enlightened being.

[Spiny Norman]

Back to topic, whether it is samatha or vipassana, the point is the hindrances must be skillfully abandon first before one can develop jhana rather than hoping to jump into jhana by luck or special method and wake up like an enlightened being.

Yes, temporary suppression of the hindrances is required to develop jhana. But then what is the purpose of developing jhana, if not to reduce the hindrances long term?

[Anagarika]

I believe that Ajahn Geoff may have expressed it as being like a bird with only one wing, flying in circles...the two wings of samatha and vipassana are the elements of jhana, and cannot "fly" correctly without each other, or operate fully independently of each other.

I think it was "Wings of awakening" rather than "wings of jhana". So samatha and vipassana are both necessary for awakening, but I'd suggest that jhana is a development of samatha rather than vipassana.

My thought is that jhana is the practice and samatha and vipassana the attendant "byproducts" or vehicles that develop from or are contained within jhana. I do not see samatha and vipassana as practices, but as elements of the practice of jhana. Perhaps I am splitting hairs or being hypertechnical. I googled and found this:

This suggests that, in the eyes of those who assembled the Pali discourses, samatha, jhana, and vipassana were all part of a single path. Samatha and vipassana were used together to master jhana and then — based on jhana — were developed even further to give rise to the end of mental defilement and to bring release from suffering. This is a reading that finds support in other discourses as well. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... etool.html

I'm a Ven. Thanissaro fan, so I may have this definition ingrained in me by virtue of spending time w ATI and at Wat Metta.

[barcsimalsi]

Yes, temporary suppression of the hindrances is required to develop jhana. But then what is the purpose of developing jhana, if not to reduce the hindrances long term?

Apart from that, as already been pointed out by fivebells, here's a quote from the sutta:

"Even though a disciple of the noble ones has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, still — if he has not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that[4] — he can be tempted by sensuality. But when he has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and he has attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, he cannot be tempted by sensuality.

"I myself, before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened bodhisatta, saw as it actually was with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, but as long as I had not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, I did not claim that I could not be tempted by sensuality. But when I saw as it actually was with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and I had attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, that was when I claimed that I could not be tempted by sensuality.