jhana required?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
whynotme
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Re: jhana required?

Post by whynotme » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:57 am

Cittasanto wrote:
ohnofabrications wrote:hi Cittasanto,

I think we mostly agree on the things you stated, but I still don't interpret the pali canon such that awakening can't possibly occur without jhana.
without knowing what you think we agree on here I doubt there is
Maybe I can explain, he agreed with most of yours that he can't provide evidence for arahantship is possible without jhana, but he is still not so convinced that arahant is impossible without jhana, because there isn't evidence that jhana is required, either. E.g we don't have evidence in suttas that the Buddha weight under 100kg or not, both cases doesn't have any evidence.

So for him, it is impossible to demonstrate arahantship can be achieved without jhana. Now, for your turn, can you provide evidence that arahantship requires jhana?

Hope that I don't misinterpret too much coz I added a bit of my opinion in it.

Regards
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ground
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Re: jhana required?

Post by ground » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:57 am

Hanzze wrote:So the Eightfold Path or the sevenfold Path, to ask directly?
The 8fold that e.g. also Bahyia practiced after have received advice from the Buddha or that he practiced before having received advice from the Buddha or that he realized through practicing according to the advice received from the Buddha ... who knows? And who wants to know and why? And who wants to claim this or that and why? If there is certainty ideas do not make a difference.

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Hanzze
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Re: jhana required?

Post by Hanzze » Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:08 am

Indeed, which also has no effects on what the Buddha claimed of being the only door.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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ground
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Re: jhana required?

Post by ground » Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:27 am

Hanzze wrote:... the only door.
What may be called "the gateless gate", mumonkan, somewhere else.

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Hanzze
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Re: jhana required?

Post by Hanzze » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:01 am

Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Cittasanto
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Re: jhana required?

Post by Cittasanto » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:50 am

whynotme wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
ohnofabrications wrote:hi Cittasanto,

I think we mostly agree on the things you stated, but I still don't interpret the pali canon such that awakening can't possibly occur without jhana.
without knowing what you think we agree on here I doubt there is
Maybe I can explain, he agreed with most of yours that he can't provide evidence for arahantship is possible without jhana, but he is still not so convinced that arahant is impossible without jhana, because there isn't evidence that jhana is required, either. E.g we don't have evidence in suttas that the Buddha weight under 100kg or not, both cases doesn't have any evidence.

So for him, it is impossible to demonstrate arahantship can be achieved without jhana. Now, for your turn, can you provide evidence that arahantship requires jhana?

Hope that I don't misinterpret too much coz I added a bit of my opinion in it.

Regards
Hi why not me,
you mean evidence beside the eightfold path & factors of awakening?
it is a factor which leads to & is part of the eightfold (not 1; 2; 3; 4; 5; 6; 7fold path) and it is part of the Tenfold path. it being described as a factor of & part of the path isn't evidence?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Hanzze
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Re: jhana required?

Post by Hanzze » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:21 am

yawares post in regard of suddhavipassanaayaana might bring some more oil to keep the topic rolling on.

"...Such a meditator is also called a "dry insight worker" [sukkhavipassaka] because he develops insight without the "moisture" of the jhaanas." sure not many like it dry.

Is jhana always jhana or sometimes just jhana?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

whynotme
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Re: jhana required?

Post by whynotme » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:09 am

Cittasanto wrote: Hi why not me,
you mean evidence beside the eightfold path & factors of awakening?
it is a factor which leads to & is part of the eightfold (not 1; 2; 3; 4; 5; 6; 7fold path) and it is part of the Tenfold path. it being described as a factor of & part of the path isn't evidence?
Yes, I know some suttas describe eightfold path includes jhanas but I am not sure is jhana the only right concentration. It is not much my problem, formerly, I am so sure that it is not required, but now I don't know. But for sure, even it is possible without jhana, I will choose to follow the jhana way.

Regards.
Please stop following me

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Cittasanto
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Re: jhana required?

Post by Cittasanto » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:20 pm

Hi Why Not Me,
I am not 100% sure what you are saying exactly I am affraid, but it has been a long day for me.

One issue with Jhanas is what it exactly means, there are texts within the suttas which have either a low or high bar for it to be called Jhana, but one thing is for sure the qualities are present. it is only when we get to the Commentaries (I am not sure about the Abhidhamma) that it is consistently on the high bar, and some argue it is higher than/different from that of the suttas.

But we have to bare in mind that the middle way taught contains only one definition for sammasamadhi not any of the others, although there are places where the definition changes. as I pointed out earlier the Jhana can be seen as the culmination of practices which develop concentration, not that they are the only form of concentration.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

theY
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Re: jhana required?

Post by theY » Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:35 pm

Hello, all.

Atthakathā + the most of sutta: required*.

Tika: excellent, but not be necessary.

Netti subject:
-taṇhācaritta**-- excellent, but not be necessary.
-diṭṭhicaritta--required.

Everything have be clear by netti subject.

note:
*In my case Jhāna=Upacāra and Appanā.
**Twice caritta for in-sign meditation, not six caritta for samatha meditation.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Re: jhana required?

Post by khemindas » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:32 am

MN 64

“There is a path, Ānanda, a way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters; that anyone, without relying on that path, on that way, shall know or see or abandon the five lower fetters—this is not possible. Just as when there is a great tree standing possessed of heartwood, it is not possible that anyone shall cut out its heartwood without cutting through its bark and sapwood, so too, there is a path…this is not possible.

“And what, Ānanda, is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters? Here, with seclusion from the acquisitions, with the abandoning of unwholesome states, with the complete tranquillization of bodily inertia, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.

Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’ If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints because of that desire for the Dhamma, that delight in the Dhamma, then with the destruction of the five lower fetters he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously in the Pure Abodes and there attain final Nibbāna without ever returning from that world. This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters.

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Re: jhana required?

Post by SavakaNik » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:41 pm

khemindas wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:32 am
MN 64

“There is a path, Ānanda, a way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters; that anyone, without relying on that path, on that way, shall know or see or abandon the five lower fetters—this is not possible. Just as when there is a great tree standing possessed of heartwood, it is not possible that anyone shall cut out its heartwood without cutting through its bark and sapwood, so too, there is a path…this is not possible.

“And what, Ānanda, is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters? Here, with seclusion from the acquisitions, with the abandoning of unwholesome states, with the complete tranquillization of bodily inertia, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.

Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’ If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints because of that desire for the Dhamma, that delight in the Dhamma, then with the destruction of the five lower fetters he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously in the Pure Abodes and there attain final Nibbāna without ever returning from that world. This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters.
I believe this is the answer OP is looking for, no? The destruction of the five lower fetters is the culmination of Jhana practice, of fluency in 5 hindrance-suppression. Is it possible one could weaken fetters 4 and 5 enough to achieve Once Returner without the practice of wholesome seclusion? Sure, I guess, I don't think there's any scripture which says otherwise. But more practically I think it's safe to understand that the farthest one can go without Jhana practice is Stream Entry, which I imagine would be achievable through penetration into the 5 aggregates via very devout "dry" investigation and contemplation.
Last edited by SavakaNik on Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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budo
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Re: jhana required?

Post by budo » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:56 pm

khemindas wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:32 am
MN 64

“There is a path, Ānanda, a way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters; that anyone, without relying on that path, on that way, shall know or see or abandon the five lower fetters—this is not possible. Just as when there is a great tree standing possessed of heartwood, it is not possible that anyone shall cut out its heartwood without cutting through its bark and sapwood, so too, there is a path…this is not possible.

“And what, Ānanda, is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters? Here, with seclusion from the acquisitions, with the abandoning of unwholesome states, with the complete tranquillization of bodily inertia, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.

Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’ If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints because of that desire for the Dhamma, that delight in the Dhamma, then with the destruction of the five lower fetters he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously in the Pure Abodes and there attain final Nibbāna without ever returning from that world. This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters.
:goodpost:

It says time in time again in the suttas that all those who have attained ANY form of enlightenment have done so by overcoming the 5 hindrances. Obviously if you overcome the 5 hindrances the only thing left to do is develop the 5 jhanas factors.

Basically you're climbing the ladder of the planes of existences to the heavenly realms and then seeing that they themselves are not good enough (impermanent) and all that's left is nibbana.

cookiemonster
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Re: jhana required?

Post by cookiemonster » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:23 pm

hermitwin wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:03 pm
jhana is definitely not required.
this is clear from many people who became arahants just by listening to the Buddha.
I always figured that those individuals practiced and mastered jhana and other virtues in their previous lifetime(s), which explained - at least to me - why it appeared that they didn't need to practice jhana & quickly attained arahatta.

SavakaNik
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Re: jhana required?

Post by SavakaNik » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:27 pm

I always felt this Sutta shined light on the role that Jhana plays pretty well:

The Fortress Nagara Sutta (AN 7:63):
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN7_63.html

Which I interpret as to be a path-treader without engagement in Jhana practice (5-hindrance suppression), is like to be a soldier without food; no matter the greatness of his purpose, fortress, comrades, weapon, and armor, it’s only a matter of time before he withers and dies of starvation.

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