jhana required?

[ground]

How does one come to experiances?

"Experience" that entails certainty here does not mean experiences commonly refered to as the khandhas. There is just no other word. If you seek instructions how to attain such kind of "experience" I just can refer you to what the Buddha taught relying that the understanding engendered will match the capacity/inclinations manifested by the heap of khandhas of your sphere.

[Hanzze]

So the Eightfold Path or the sevenfold Path, to ask directly? Maybe it is importand to say that all the seven sets of awakening (one display is called "the eightfold path) are in reference with the co-depending origin which is nothing else as another projection of operation of the khandhas.

Maybe useful: Concentration & Discernment

We noted in II/A that some of the sets in the Wings to Awakening list jhāna as a condition for discernment, whereas others list discernment as a condition for jhāna. Place both of these patterns into the context of this/that conditionality, and they convey the point that jhāna and discernment in practice are mutually supporting. Passage §171 states this point explicitly, while §165 and §166 show that the difference between the two causal patterns relates to differences in meditators: some develop strong powers of concentration before developing strong discernment, whereas others gain a sound theoretical understanding of the Dhamma before developing strong concentration. In either case, both strong concentration and sound discernment are needed to bring about Awakening. Passage §111 makes the point that when the practice reaches the culmination of its development, concentration and discernment act in tandem. The passages in this section deal with this topic in more detail....

[hermitwin]

jhana is the state of mind when you have sufficiently let go.
so if you are seeking jhana for pleasure,
rest assured that you will not find it.

jhana is definitely not required.
this is clear from many people who became arahants just by listening to the Buddha.
however, jhana is the inevitable result if you are concentrated in meditation,
unless you deliberately avoid it.
Buddha said the pleasure of the jhana is the one pleasure that he allows himself.
so all the fear of jhana is totally unfounded.

I would just say some word about how jhana brings pleasure:

Jhana state of mind arise from his stillness, from his purety.
When he become suffisently pure and calm, he is able to fill wery thin mouvements of body and mind. Like a pure leaf can show more details rather a dirty leaf.
More mind is pure and calm, more he is sensitive

And this very thin sensation in body and mind brings pleasure, but we must be carefull about this pleasure, dont apropriate it, dont identify with it, if the one is wise he will dont be delight in this pleasure, but be awere of that is feeling this pleasure, dwell in it, anyway if he will apropriate it and identify with it, it will disapear, so he have not a choice. It's may be paradoxal, but to get this pleasure you must take a distance with it, dont delight in it, because this pleasure it's not a fruit, is not a realisation, it's a consequance of fruit, consequance of realisation, so we have to be wise, and dont dwell in want is impermanent, but in what is permanent

When this plasure is known it's easy to stop sex, drugs, and others plesant addictions, it's like a match and bonfire. But at the same moment, if our mind will still be disturbed by sex, drugs or other, he dont will be calm and pure, and dont will rich this kind of state...
Aniway is not the aim, it's a bonus, it's not the cake, is the cherry on the cake. It's important to know.

But anyway, if the one is a meditative addict, and the one seek for pleasure he dont will attain this kind of pleasure, so the one who will attaint it will naturaly know what to do with this pleasure, how to work with it. So my post is adressed to those who seek for pleasure of jhana, and not for the purity of mind.

With regards

[Viscid]

Also from Shankman and Thanissaro in "The Experience of Samadhi: An In-depth Exploration of Buddhist Meditation"

RS: There are examples in the suttas of people attaining at least some level of deep insight of awakening apparently without jhāna or deep meditation practices.

AT: These are the cases where people gain awakening while listening to teachings. But we don't know what their minds were doing as they sat there listening. Usually the teaching was pointing directly to something going on in their minds, so they started observing their minds, entered concentration, and gained release.

RS: There are teachers who tend to shy away from jhāna as being not necessary at all and even a potential trap.

AT: The Buddha wasn't one of them. There are some people who tend to be psychologically unstable and have to be very careful about how they handle states of concentration, but in general, if you have right view about jhāna, it's not dangerous at all.
Now there are some people who say jhāna isn't necessary, that it can be a hindrance because you can become attached to the experiences and mistake the aruppas for Nibbāna. But there are lots of things you can mistake for Nibbāna. If you're doing what you think is vipassana and you hit, say, a state of nonperception-- you may think that's cessation, the end of suffering. But the danger doesn't lie in the state. It's in how you interpret it. No matter what your technique, if you're the sort of person who tends to overinterpret your attainment, you're going to hear in that direction no matter what. Some people tend to be very good at denial, they're good at not seeing their own defilements, and they can use the one-pointed kind of jhāna to exacerbate the problem. But they can also do that with any of the vipassana techniques.

[Cittasanto]

hi Cittasanto,

I think we mostly agree on the things you stated, but I still don't interpret the pali canon such that awakening can't possibly occur without jhana.

without knowing what you think we agree on here I doubt there is
There is one thing I will add.
it is worth remembering that during the Mahavihara/Abhiyagiri "war" in Sri Lanka it became important to keep the canon for future generations. as a result the pali canon in comparison to the chinese canon has a academic neuance to it.
the Chinese canon and the pali canon have a pericope which is almost the same except that meditation is emphasised more.
without directly quoting they go something like this with the extra found in the chinese in brackets
"as the monks listened to the dhamma of the blessed one their minds became gladdened [they practised what they were taught] and 500 monks became Arahants."
the extra is implied and doesn't specifically require spelling out but it is a possible omition which can be dated to the same time as when academics became seen as more necessary and this theory that Jhana isn't necessary became seen.

do remember what the Buddha says regarding disrespect for concentration and what leads to non decline
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Respecting the Teacher respecting the Dhamma, and with fierce respect for the Sangha, respecting concentration, ardent, and with fierce respect for training, having admirable friends, compliant, deferential, respectful — incapable of decline — one is right in the presence of unbinding.

[whynotme]

hi Cittasanto,

I think we mostly agree on the things you stated, but I still don't interpret the pali canon such that awakening can't possibly occur without jhana.

without knowing what you think we agree on here I doubt there is

Maybe I can explain, he agreed with most of yours that he can't provide evidence for arahantship is possible without jhana, but he is still not so convinced that arahant is impossible without jhana, because there isn't evidence that jhana is required, either. E.g we don't have evidence in suttas that the Buddha weight under 100kg or not, both cases doesn't have any evidence.

So for him, it is impossible to demonstrate arahantship can be achieved without jhana. Now, for your turn, can you provide evidence that arahantship requires jhana?

Hope that I don't misinterpret too much coz I added a bit of my opinion in it.

Regards

[ground]

So the Eightfold Path or the sevenfold Path, to ask directly?

The 8fold that e.g. also Bahyia practiced after have received advice from the Buddha or that he practiced before having received advice from the Buddha or that he realized through practicing according to the advice received from the Buddha ... who knows? And who wants to know and why? And who wants to claim this or that and why? If there is certainty ideas do not make a difference.

[Hanzze]

Indeed, which also has no effects on what the Buddha claimed of being the only door.

[ground]

... the only door.

What may be called "the gateless gate", mumonkan, somewhere else.

[Hanzze]

maybe yes maybe no

[Cittasanto]

hi Cittasanto,

I think we mostly agree on the things you stated, but I still don't interpret the pali canon such that awakening can't possibly occur without jhana.

without knowing what you think we agree on here I doubt there is

Maybe I can explain, he agreed with most of yours that he can't provide evidence for arahantship is possible without jhana, but he is still not so convinced that arahant is impossible without jhana, because there isn't evidence that jhana is required, either. E.g we don't have evidence in suttas that the Buddha weight under 100kg or not, both cases doesn't have any evidence.

So for him, it is impossible to demonstrate arahantship can be achieved without jhana. Now, for your turn, can you provide evidence that arahantship requires jhana?

Hope that I don't misinterpret too much coz I added a bit of my opinion in it.

Regards

Hi why not me,
you mean evidence beside the eightfold path & factors of awakening?
it is a factor which leads to & is part of the eightfold (not 1; 2; 3; 4; 5; 6; 7fold path) and it is part of the Tenfold path. it being described as a factor of & part of the path isn't evidence?

[Hanzze]

yawares post in regard of suddhavipassanaayaana might bring some more oil to keep the topic rolling on.

"...Such a meditator is also called a "dry insight worker" [sukkhavipassaka] because he develops insight without the "moisture" of the jhaanas." sure not many like it dry.

Is jhana always jhana or sometimes just jhana?

[whynotme]

Hi why not me,
you mean evidence beside the eightfold path & factors of awakening?
it is a factor which leads to & is part of the eightfold (not 1; 2; 3; 4; 5; 6; 7fold path) and it is part of the Tenfold path. it being described as a factor of & part of the path isn't evidence?

Yes, I know some suttas describe eightfold path includes jhanas but I am not sure is jhana the only right concentration. It is not much my problem, formerly, I am so sure that it is not required, but now I don't know. But for sure, even it is possible without jhana, I will choose to follow the jhana way.

Regards.

[Cittasanto]

Hi Why Not Me,
I am not 100% sure what you are saying exactly I am affraid, but it has been a long day for me.

One issue with Jhanas is what it exactly means, there are texts within the suttas which have either a low or high bar for it to be called Jhana, but one thing is for sure the qualities are present. it is only when we get to the Commentaries (I am not sure about the Abhidhamma) that it is consistently on the high bar, and some argue it is higher than/different from that of the suttas.

But we have to bare in mind that the middle way taught contains only one definition for sammasamadhi not any of the others, although there are places where the definition changes. as I pointed out earlier the Jhana can be seen as the culmination of practices which develop concentration, not that they are the only form of concentration.

[theY]

Hello, all.

Atthakathā + the most of sutta: required*.

Tika: excellent, but not be necessary.

Netti subject:
-taṇhācaritta**-- excellent, but not be necessary.
-diṭṭhicaritta--required.

Everything have be clear by netti subject.

note:
*In my case Jhāna=Upacāra and Appanā.
**Twice caritta for in-sign meditation, not six caritta for samatha meditation.