jhana required?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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tiltbillings
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Re: jhana required?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:46 am

whynotme wrote:Thank you very much santa100, that is exactly what sutta I am looking for and it doesnt support arahant without jhana.

Regards
Always the question, of course, as to what exactly is meant by jhana. And there is this question:
tiltbillings wrote:
Dmytro wrote:
Some degree of wisdom can be attained without the completion of concentration, however the completion of wisdom requires the completion of concentration.
The "completion of concentration" means?
Following santa100's post one certainly does not need to accomplish the formless jhanas or the 9th jhana or become a master of the jhanas to the point of the iddhis for "completion of concentration."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Dmytro
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Re: jhana required?

Post by Dmytro » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:23 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Dmytro wrote:
Some degree of wisdom can be attained without the completion of concentration, however the completion of wisdom requires the completion of concentration.
The "completion of concentration" means?
As seen from other suttas, - at least the first jhana.

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tiltbillings
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Re: jhana required?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:41 am

Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Dmytro wrote:
Some degree of wisdom can be attained without the completion of concentration, however the completion of wisdom requires the completion of concentration.
The "completion of concentration" means?
As seen from other suttas, - at least the first jhana.
And this is not asking much.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Viscid
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Re: jhana required?

Post by Viscid » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:51 am

tiltbillings wrote:And this is not asking much.
...if you're under the impression that the first jhana is something relatively simple. Many people are under the impression that the first jhana is an achievement rarely gained, which is the position from which posts like these, I imagine, are authored.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James

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tiltbillings
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Re: jhana required?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:11 am

Viscid wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And this is not asking much.
...if you're under the impression that the first jhana is something relatively simple. Many people are under the impression that the first jhana is an achievement rarely gained, which is the position from which posts like these, I imagine, are authored.
If one believes the number of jhana claims that have made here on DW over the last year or so, it is not that hard. The reality is, however, dependent upon what one means by jhana. It would seem that what consitutes jhana experience, even the first, can vary significantly:


http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 21#p140097" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: jhana required?

Post by Sylvester » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:15 am

Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Dmytro wrote:
Some degree of wisdom can be attained without the completion of concentration, however the completion of wisdom requires the completion of concentration.
The "completion of concentration" means?
As seen from other suttas, - at least the first jhana.

I'm a little more lax on this.

MN 44 defines the paññākkhandha (aggregate of wisdom/discernment) to be made up of Right View and Right Intention. It appears that one fulfills/completes (paripūreti) this aggregate when one has fulfilled the samādhikkhandha. MN 44 defines the samādhikkhandha to be made up of Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration.

MN 44 then defines concentration as follows -
Singleness of mind is concentration, friend Visakha; the four frames of reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its requisites; and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these qualities is its development.

Yā kho, āvuso visākha, cittassa ekaggatā ayaṃ samādhi; cattāro satipaṭṭhānā samādhinimittā; cattāro sammappadhānā samādhiparikkhārā. Yā tesaṃyeva dhammānaṃ āsevanā bhāvanā bahulīkammaṃ, ayaṃ ettha samādhibhāvanā’’ti.
This cittassa ekaggatā is not exclusive to the jhanas, and it appears to be a quality of satipaṭṭhāna as well. Given that Right Intention is in fact needed to get into the 1st Jhana, I think satipaṭṭhāna seems to be the best candidate to cultivate this aspect of the samādhikkhandha, in order to be able to fulfill the paññākkhandha.

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Re: jhana required?

Post by DAWN » Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:04 pm

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SN 12.70
Susima Sutta: About Susima


Now at that time a large number of monks had declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: "We discern that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world.'"
...
"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you wield manifold supranormal powers? ..
"No, friend."

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you hear — by means of the divine ear-element, purified & surpassing the human — both kinds of sounds: divine & human, whether near or far?"
"No, friend."

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you know the awareness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with your own awareness? Do you discern a mind with passion as a mind with passion...
"No, friend."
...
"We're released through discernment, friend Susima." (Bhikkhu Bodhi : We are liberated by wisdom...)


PS
Translator's note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not support this assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states beyond forms." In this, their definition of "discernment-release" is no different from that given in AN 9.44 (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness" and "released in both ways" given in AN 9.43 and AN 9.45). Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining Awakening.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

hermitwin
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Re: jhana required?

Post by hermitwin » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:03 pm

jhana is definitely not required.
this is clear from many people who became arahants just by listening to the Buddha.
however, jhana is the inevitable result if you are concentrated in meditation,
unless you deliberately avoid it.
Buddha said the pleasure of the jhana is the one pleasure that he allows himself.
so all the fear of jhana is totally unfounded.

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DAWN
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Re: jhana required?

Post by DAWN » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:48 pm

hermitwin wrote:jhana is definitely not required.
this is clear from many people who became arahants just by listening to the Buddha.
however, jhana is the inevitable result if you are concentrated in meditation,
unless you deliberately avoid it.
Buddha said the pleasure of the jhana is the one pleasure that he allows himself.
so all the fear of jhana is totally unfounded.
I would just say some word about how jhana brings pleasure:

Jhana state of mind arise from his stillness, from his purety.
When he become suffisently pure and calm, he is able to fill wery thin mouvements of body and mind. Like a pure leaf can show more details rather a dirty leaf.
More mind is pure and calm, more he is sensitive

And this very thin sensation in body and mind brings pleasure, but we must be carefull about this pleasure, dont apropriate it, dont identify with it, if the one is wise he will dont be delight in this pleasure, but be awere of that is feeling this pleasure, dwell in it, anyway if he will apropriate it and identify with it, it will disapear, so he have not a choice. It's may be paradoxal, but to get this pleasure you must take a distance with it, dont delight in it, because this pleasure it's not a fruit, is not a realisation, it's a consequance of fruit, consequance of realisation, so we have to be wise, and dont dwell in want is impermanent, but in what is permanent

When this plasure is known it's easy to stop sex, drugs, and others plesant addictions, it's like a match and bonfire. But at the same moment, if our mind will still be disturbed by sex, drugs or other, he dont will be calm and pure, and dont will rich this kind of state...
Aniway is not the aim, it's a bonus, it's not the cake, is the cherry on the cake. It's important to know.

But anyway, if the one is a meditative addict, and the one seek for pleasure he dont will attain this kind of pleasure, so the one who will attaint it will naturaly know what to do with this pleasure, how to work with it. So my post is adressed to those who seek for pleasure of jhana, and not for the purity of mind.

With regards :meditate:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Re: jhana required?

Post by Maarten » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:02 pm

hermitwin wrote:jhana is definitely not required.
this is clear from many people who became arahants just by listening to the Buddha.
This is only true if you know that these people never attained Jhana before listening to the Buddha. :smile:

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Re: jhana required?

Post by daverupa » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:23 pm

hermitwin wrote:jhana is definitely not required.
this is clear from many people who became arahants just by listening to the Buddha.
Jhana is a required stage of the gradual training, coming after the suppression of the hindrances and before the destruction of the asavas.

I would like to examine any suttas which showcase someone becoming an arahant solely through listening. Can you provide a few that you had in mind, when writing that?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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reflection
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Re: jhana required?

Post by reflection » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:02 pm

I think those quotes that say who and who became this and that are very dubious anyway. They are not the words of the Buddha, so who added these and how did they know?.. Very questionable and therefore I would not put any value on it.

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Mr Man
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Re: jhana required?

Post by Mr Man » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:13 pm

daverupa wrote:
hermitwin wrote:jhana is definitely not required.
this is clear from many people who became arahants just by listening to the Buddha.


I would like to examine any suttas which showcase someone becoming an arahant solely through listening. Can you provide a few that you had in mind, when writing that?
For the sake of hearing your explanation I will put forward the Adittapariyaya Sutta

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Re: jhana required?

Post by m0rl0ck » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:19 pm

Apparently you can become a buddha by hearing one speak http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C4%81vakabuddha" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

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daverupa
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Re: jhana required?

Post by daverupa » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:23 pm

Mr Man wrote:I will put forward the Adittapariyaya Sutta
So, that sutta isn't very clear on preceding practices, is it? For example, what can we assume about how those monks practiced? The patimokkha, restraint of the senses, food restraint, mindfulness and clear comprehension... were these practices done?

Or was speaking that sutta like a magic spell, which the Buddha cast upon those monks?

---
m0rl0ck wrote:Apparently you can become a buddha by hearing one speak http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C4%81vakabuddha" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That article says arahants attain awakening by their own effort after hearing the Dhamma; and, the term isn't used in the Nikayas in the first place, according to the article...

Additionally,
AN 2.125-126 wrote:"Monks, there are these two conditions for the arising of wrong view. Which two? The voice of another and inappropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of wrong view."

"Monks, there are these two conditions for the arising of right view. Which two? The voice of another and appropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view."
...so, the voice of even the Buddha isn't enough, is it?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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