Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
auto
Posts: 1218
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:42 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:09 pm
Thanks Auto,
I enjoyed it while it lasted, i.e. until you pulled excerpts from suttas and tried to prove those wrong. It is quite simple to do if one resorts to the old trick of quoting stuff out of context, and call Buddha a fool, which is nonsense.
The point being if you make fun of the four jhanas then you prove to the readers here, that Buddha was not quite with it. On 11/30/19 at 3.33 pm Auto commented on an aspect of the first buddhist jhana using an excerpt of MN 85 Bodhirajakumara sutta 'aloof from pleasures of the senses'
'rapturous and joyful' is way of making words into relatable adjectives, it isn't knowledge.
So Buddha was not about knowledge, Auto's innuendo. Cool attempt.
i am Satanist.

you are suddenly forgetting that i answered to your question,
Pulsar wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:54 pm
What are the similarities I used? what realism?
i then went to search where you used Sutta quote where as an example you take the words as adjectives and then relate to it and think you 'got it' as you now have jhāna too.
---
A request,
can you stop using my alias and referring me as some kind of buddha hater, i don't give a shyt about identifying myself with a religion and matters like these.

Pulsar
Posts: 474
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:57 pm

Auto wrote
A request, can you stop using my alias and referring me as some kind of buddha hater, i don't give a shyt about identifying myself with a religion and matters like these
When did I call you a Buddha hater? Can you pl. copy and paste that sentence. As for identification, no I do not identify my words "as mine" or your words as "as yours". So there, rest easy.
Let us not carry the burden of words around with
us, it is too much weight. This is a chat group, I communicate as occasion
demands, it is only conventional speech. In absolute terms Auto is not here, neither
is Pulsar. See the lightness of being.
With love :candle:

auto
Posts: 1218
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:07 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:57 pm
Auto wrote
A request, can you stop using my alias and referring me as some kind of buddha hater, i don't give a shyt about identifying myself with a religion and matters like these
When did I call you a Buddha hater? Can you pl. copy and paste that sentence.
I didn't say 'buddha hater', I said
auto wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:42 pm
as some kind of buddha hater
it isn't letter to letter but meant broader term.
Pulsar wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:09 pm
and call Buddha a fool
..your requested quote above
Pulsar wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:57 pm
This is a chat group, I communicate as occasion
demands, it is only conventional speech.
I see that, you have no idea about what is on discussion: you are reacting on individual posts and forget about story what spawns over multiple posts and top of that doesn't even have time.
Pulsar wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:57 pm
In absolute terms Auto is not here, neither
is Pulsar. See the lightness of being.
mind won't heal or go sound after death of a body.

Pulsar
Posts: 474
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:27 pm

Auto wrote
"mind won't heal or go sound after death of a body"

who is talking of death of body?  this is a thread on the 4 jhanas. One who practices the 4 jhanas, which is clear mindfulness, does not worry about death of body.
Jhanas lead to insights that heal the mind. Mindfulness lends one freedom from illness.
The undisciplined mind moves to and fro, impulsively, is angst ridden, seeks mundane ephemeral pleasures. Such minds create their own death chamber.
Heart of the firmly resolved meditator is calm, it disables the neurosis fueled activity (fear causing neurochemicals)
Those who are mindful do not die 
Those who are not mindful are as if already dead.


Fully comprehending this, 
The wise, who are mindful,
Rejoice in being mindful and 
Find delight in the domain of the Noble Ones (Ariyas). i.e. Jhanas

The wise, constantly cultivating tranquility and insight development practice 
Being ever mindful and steadfastly striving, realise Nibbana 
Nibbana, which is bond-free i.e. free from the four bonds
of sense desires, craving for existence, false views, and ignorance
,
Nibbana, the Incomparable!
 
(Dhamapadda 21-23) 

Be well Dear Auto!

auto
Posts: 1218
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:41 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:27 pm
who is talking of death of body?
it was my response to your speech of consolidation of innocence,
Pulsar wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:57 pm
This is a chat group, I communicate as occasion
demands, it is only conventional speech. In absolute terms Auto is not here, neither
is Pulsar. See the lightness of being.
you seem thinking there is no self, there then can't be also any kamma you do on forums.

cyberviolence causes suicides. As of using other persons delusions to get them that far.

Pulsar
Posts: 474
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:51 pm

Auto wrote "You seem to think there is no self etc"
You misjudge me. I cannot be 100% clear with every sentence I write. 
To understand what is meant, when it is said there is no self, one must understand the teachings of Buddha. 
An excerpt from Radhasamyutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... han.htmlan excerpt 
A number of discourses (among them, SN 35.191; AN 6.63) make the point that the mind is fettered, not by things like the five aggregates or the objects of the six senses, but by the act of passion & delight for them
There are two ways to try to cut through this fetter.
One is to focus on the drawbacks of passion & delight in & of themselves, seeing clearly the stress & suffering they engender in the mind
The other is to analyze the objects of passion & delight in such a way that they no longer seem worthy of interest. This second approach is the one recommended in this discourse: when the Buddha talks of "smashing, scattering, & demolishing form, feeling, sanna, sankhara, vinnana (what we think as self) and making these unfit for play," he is referring to the practice of analyzing form, feeling etc. minutely into its component parts until it no longer seems a fit object for passion & delight. When all five aggregates can be treated in this way, the mind is left with no conditioned object to serve as a focal point for its passion, and so is released. 
The goal of this thread is to discuss ways of releasing suffering we are immersed in, using meditation.
This is not a thread meant for those who do not trust Buddha.
If anything written upsets anyone, all I can say is "Buyer Beware" It is not for the disbelievers of the teachings of the Tathagata. There are plenty of other chats going on, related to personal issues, that are quite fun. 
Auto you would be better off there. Besides Buddha has never categorically said that there is a self
or the self is not. Just deluded beings get hung up on the extremes of being and non-being, and fail to see the dependent rising involved.
Take care!  :candle:

auto
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:26 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:51 pm
..
This thread is about 4 jhānas how ordinary people can do jhāna. Other thread you have is about 4 jhānas is enough, the other 4 jhānas are crept in by others.

These are pretty controversial topics.

Pulsar
Posts: 474
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:51 pm

Middle Path...since a misunderstanding arose regarding "self" 
  • That everything is neither totally empty nor non-empty.
This can be rewritten as
  • everything is neither self nor not self.

OR that
  • I am not here, but for all intents and purposes "I" need to act as if "I" am here, until I wake up to the emptiness. At that point i.e. Arahant, all concepts will disappear,  no worries.
Until then one on the Ariyan path, needs practice, needs to wipe out gradually this colossal one sided deception that "I exist", by analyzing what 'I' means.
All this is not easy for those, esp for those who deal with mental issues, at times, vast confusions rage in their minds, at times they are immensely peaceful. It is a roller coaster ride for them. 
They need to find some kind of anchor, before sitting down to jhana meditation, or before adventuring into the emptiness of life. 
Some took to metaphysics (Instead of meditation) to resolve the issue.  Buddha himself resorted to
"Imagine there is a self, conduct yourself in the most beautifully benevolent way" as evidenced by MN 8 Sallekha Sutta. Sallekha originally meant "Austerity or ascetic practice" an effort to permanently eradicate flaws.
One who eradicates afflictions in this manner, enjoys it as bliss and peace, not as a means of insight, jhana meditation is about using Samatha, in order to gain INSIGHT. However, these are different approaches to reduce angst.
Here is a condensed excerpt of MN 8
  • "Others will be cruel, I shall not be so"
  • "Others will speak falsehood, I shall not do so"
  • "Others will speak harshly, others will gossip, others will be covetous, others will have wrong view, others will be doubters, others will be restless, others will be resentful, others will be insolent,  others will be faithless, others will be complacent, others will be envious, others will be deceitful, others will lack wisdom, others will stick to their own views...I shall be none of the above"
For the one who believes in a 'self', there is nothing wrong with it, when we speak in worldly ways. But use it to your advantage, check out Sallekha.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nypo.html.
PS Buddha's teaching is founded on compassion for the predicament, of the suffering of others and
ourselves. If not for that, Siddhartha would not have cared to go through the turmoil (years of acetic practice) of becoming Buddha. So if you believe in a self and if that helps you, to anchor yourself, be so.
With love :candle:

auto
Posts: 1218
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:13 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:51 pm
Until then one on the Ariyan path, needs practice, needs to wipe out gradually this colossal one sided deception that "I exist", by analyzing what 'I' means.
The notion of "I exist" is already wrong thinking. Instead, what exists has a witness or seer. In short whatever state, that state has a witness.

pali seem doesn't use word state, it uses 'asmi', 'atthi', I think these are derivatives from 'santi', which is used to denote the object what exists. Now make me understand better and where is the faults, since I'm guessing.

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:57 pm

Auto wrote
"The notion of "I exist" is already wrong thinking"
Thanks for pointing out my wrong thinking.
Auto also wrote
" Instead, what exists has a witness or seer. In short whatever state, that state has a
witness"
Now I get it, how Samkhya, or whatever, who can keep track of the various sects of Brahmanism, or Hinduism. Are you here to educate Rita? there was a Hollywood movie by that title, my silly sense of
humor crawls all over me.
You inspired Pulsar to get into Saivism 101. In some regions Buddhism is infiltrated with this kind of hindu thought. Look who is witnessing now?
Pulsar's take.
Hinduism is not one thing, a simile "There is not one jar of jam" It comes in various flavors. i.e. Apricot, Rhubaarb, whiskey, Happy Friday, Mango etc. Likewise Buddhism is not of a single flavor. Ideas of one has crept over to the other, stolen, borrowed? Result, many think there is hardly any difference between various Hindu sects, and Buddhist sects.
The only thing that sets apart the two Is the Jam of Dependent origination. It is of one flavor only, its recipe cannot be copied by the Hinduistic traditions.
Ones who knows the recipe know that Hinduism and Buddhism taught by Tathagata, are as far apart as the North pole and the South Pole.
Paticcasamuppada can neither be understood by reading, nor by engaging in endless argument.
It has to be experienced. The only way to experience it, is through the insights that come from Buddhist meditation. But many buddhists sweep under the rug meditaions akin to the 4 Buddhist jhanas, saying it is not for the ordinary.
If so Paticcasamuppada is not for the ordinary, and consequently such ordinary folks perceive there is no difference in the jams of Hinduism and jams of Buddhism. But the jam of Paticcasamuppada lies beyond their reach, as much as it lies beyond the reach of Auto.
I will bring examples from the teachings of Saivism, to show you the tell tale marks of blatant stealing, even some sects of Jainism have arisen due to this kind of theft, so some end up saying stuff like "Jainism is so similar to Buddhism, but it is lots more fun"
Auto. wrote
pali seem doesn't use word state, it uses 'asmi', 'atthi', I think these are derivatives from 'santi', which is used to denote the object what exists. Now make me understand better and where is the faults, since I'm guessing.
Unfortunately Pulsar's faith is not in a Pali dictionary, but in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Arahant
Sangha.
Be well dear Auto. Peace of mind is important for all of us. :candle:

auto
Posts: 1218
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:52 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:57 pm
Result, many think there is hardly any difference between various Hindu sects, and Buddhist sects.
like differences between translations.
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:57 pm
But the jam of Paticcasamuppada lies beyond their reach, as much as it lies beyond the reach of Auto.
aren't the Sutta say that you should not rely on things what arises and passes away, are subject to decay and feeling of loss, dukkha?
https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/sujato wrote: And what is the noble search? Katamā ca, bhikkhave, ariyā pariyesanā?

It’s when someone who is themselves liable to be reborn, understanding the drawbacks in being liable to be reborn, seeks the unborn supreme sanctuary, extinguishment. Themselves liable to grow old, fall sick, die, sorrow, and become corrupted, understanding the drawbacks in these things, they seek the unaging, unailing, undying, sorrowless, uncorrupted supreme sanctuary, extinguishment.

Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco attanā jātidhammo samāno jātidhamme ādīnavaṃ viditvā ajātaṃ anuttaraṃ yogakkhemaṃ nibbānaṃ pariyesati, attanā jarādhammo samāno jarādhamme ādīnavaṃ viditvā ajaraṃ anuttaraṃ yogakkhemaṃ nibbānaṃ pariyesati, attanā byādhidhammo samāno byādhidhamme ādīnavaṃ viditvā abyādhiṃ anuttaraṃ yogakkhemaṃ nibbānaṃ pariyesati, attanā maraṇadhammo samāno maraṇadhamme ādīnavaṃ viditvā amataṃ anuttaraṃ yogakkhemaṃ nibbānaṃ pariyesati, attanā sokadhammo samāno sokadhamme ādīnavaṃ viditvā asokaṃ anuttaraṃ yogakkhemaṃ nibbānaṃ pariyesati, attanā saṅkilesadhammo samāno saṅkilesadhamme ādīnavaṃ viditvā asaṅkiliṭṭhaṃ anuttaraṃ yogakkhemaṃ nibbānaṃ pariyesati.
what have reborn, become into existence then its cause is unrelyable. So you can guess here if jhāna factors are coming from and are liable to disappear.
I suppose the thing you realize - the deathless is not part of jhāna and that you don't even need jhāna to awaken to the unborn. But Sutta still wants you to practice jhāna since factors what arise are developing the mind to become accustomed to the dimension of not-form.

Pulsar
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:52 pm

Auto wrote
"So you can guess here if jhāna factors are coming from and are liable to disappear."
which jhana factors are you talking about? The thread is about the 4 Buddhist jhanas, not the 4 immaterial
meditations, snuck in to the canon by originally non Buddha followers, or due to a brahmanic/hinduistic influence.
This had great negative repercussions. Recently a dear person on DW wrote, I think the thread was kinda related to suicide in a fun way... it read something like this "I want to enter jhana go to 9th jhana where I lose consciousness and then dont want to come out", did he mean
he would love to get into 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th jhanas and achieve saññāvedayita-nirodha-samāpatti?
Did he understand it like a benevolent suicide? Perhaps he thought of it as a cool comatose state?
It was fun to read that thread.
To me it appeared that he understood this tier of jhanas 5th-8th as gradually helping one to gain a perfectly calm inactive state, not a state that leads to insights. I will try to locate that thread later.
The buddhist 4 jhanas were taught as a raft one builds to get across to the other shore, a means of gaining insight, it is meant to be built and discarded like the rest of the 8-fold path.
But this stuff probably sounds like Greek to Auto.
Those who cling to jhana or any other step of the path, are involved in a wrong practice.
Auto wrote
I suppose the thing you realize - the deathless is not part of jhāna and that you don't even need jhāna to awaken to the unborn.
When did I say Deathless is part of the 4 Buddhist jhanas?

Auto wrote
But Sutta still wants you to practice jhāna since factors what arise are developing the mind to become accustomed to the dimension of not-form.
Which sutta says This? Is it a sutta of the Samkhaya tradition? pl educate me.
With love :candle:

auto
Posts: 1218
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:45 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:52 pm
which jhana factors are you talking about?
the four jhāna's which is the topic of this discussion.
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:52 pm
But this stuff probably sounds like Greek to Auto.
.. yes I don't know, so what? make another essay of "not telling naught but repeating what is in English translations"
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:52 pm
Which sutta says This? Is it a sutta of the Samkhaya tradition? pl educate me.
forget it, i went into too much personal thinking.

+I have system what gives me tangible results and so over the years and haven't stopped giving..
+if I would end up in some Arab forum, I would accept their customs prolly and learn there about exactly same things as here but different names, terms etc.
--
tbh you would fit in the Taobums(there prolly are many other but its where I have been so it can sound ignorant) forum you will find there likeminded people who never seem know what is to retreat or yield
Last edited by auto on Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pulsar
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:59 pm

Auto wrote
yes I don't know, so what? make another essay of "not telling naught but repeating what is in English translations"
cool that sounds like Greek to me.
Auto wrote
Pulsar wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:52 pm
Which sutta says This? Is it a sutta of the Samkhaya tradition? pl educate me.
forget it, i went into too much personal thinking.
Which means there is no such sutta.
Auto wrote
+I have system what gives me tangible results and so over the years and haven't stopped giving..
that is nice, everyone should have such a system. Best
:candle:

Pulsar
Posts: 474
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:16 pm

Once there was a son of a fishermen caught in a vast net of craving. Get the pun. To this son, Buddha addressed a Sutta, called  Mahatanha sankhaya sutta. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Anyone who meditates on this sutta will get ahead.
Some excerpts, in my usually simplified words
  • Have I not said in many ways consciousness to be dependently risen, Buddha says
  • Consciousness is reckoned by what feeds it, eye, ear, ...or things that gush into mind. Sometimes it is fed by rubbish. How true more often than not, I think.
  • Speaking of nutrient: That has come to be. You have come to be with that as nutrient. When the nutrient supply ceases, consciousness will not arise. Then he speaks about the feeding mechanism SN 12.60
  • this sutta has to be meditated upon, Son's flesh. Teacher shocks us by saying we are like the Lotus eaters, no,  he did not say lotus eaters, but what we do amounts to eating something far worse. We feed on a sons' flesh. Why did he say that? He wanted to wake us up from our complacency
  • then he asks: If you treat the dhamma, 8-fold path as a possession  and cherish it, and treasure it, would that be right ? simile of the raft is brought in
  • he speaks of how we are all trapped within DO, goes over the details, forwardly  and backwardly. Then he speaks of the need to arouse wisdom, how to demolish DO
  • Once ignorance ceases, no more Volitional formations of the kamma making kind will arise, the current consciousness will not propagate itself
  • Knowing and seeing this way would you dilly dally, thinking "Was I in the past" "Will I be in the future" Que sera sera...Knowing and seeing this way would you run to another teacher (samkhya, Ajivaka, Jain or whatever) Knowing and seeing this way would you return to tumultuous debates taking other teachings as core of holy life? (like meditations taught by other teachers, my take)
Now how does the vicious round end?
  • A Tathagata appears in the world fully enlightened, purifies his mind from doubt, frees it from five hindrances, he enters first jhana, 2nd, 3rd, 4th .....But pay attention here, he does not go beyond the 4th jhana. So to break the cycle of DO all we need is the 4 jhanas. Some who advocate saññāvedayita-nirodha-samāpatti ...using nonbuddhist meditations, are they right? will they insist that Buddha had a memory loss here?
PS The simple follower of the doctrine, to free herself/himself  from suffering does not lean on elaborate meditative schemes made up by collaborative efforts, because the simple original scheme holds the vastly exalted states of mindfulness. That is all that is required. It offers a bounty of insight, sufficient to command Right Knowledge the 9th step of MN 117 leading to the last step Right Deliverance. With love.

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