Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:37 am

Auto wrote
internet search doesn't come up with anything, so i don't find that Sutta

a link to sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
A detailed exposition of the sutta
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el188.html

Dear Auto, I think you confuse the features of a great being with the goal of Buddhist jhanas. Goal of
four buddhist jhanas is 'The release from suffering' might one's sexual preference, or
what one wishes to accomplish in this regard, be part of it?

As for your excerpts from VSM, how is it related to the topic under discussion? Can we leave
VSM aside, at this point, and refer to the canon only? VSM contains commentaries, sometimes some are
on the mark, and others commentaries are made by highly theoretical
scholars, they complicate and confuse the work
of the practical meditator. :candle:

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DooDoot
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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot » Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:37 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:37 am
Goal of four buddhist jhanas is 'The release from suffering'
AN 4.41 appears to say the goal of four buddhist jhanas is 'a pleasant abiding in the here & now'.

AN 4.41 appears to say the goal of 'focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates' is 'the release from suffering (ending of the effluents)'.
AN 4.41 wrote:And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now.

And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:10 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:37 am
As for your excerpts from VSM, how is it related to the topic under discussion?
The word ñāṇadassana it is what you quoted from an4.41 but in english language what is translated as 'knowledge and vision'. It appears that Visuddhimagga has interpretation on what that word is.
Pulsar wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:37 am
Can we leave
VSM aside, at this point, and refer to the canon only?
Isn't it about what is in the canon?
You don't have to specifically focus on the visuddhimagga but leave it as a helpful side information to point out some things like maybe the 2nd point on the 4.41 is about insight(regardless if it is day or night) knowledges, it is valid argument.
Pulsar wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:37 am
VSM contains commentaries, sometimes some are
on the mark, and others commentaries are made by highly theoretical
scholars, they complicate and confuse the work
of the practical meditator.
is the interpretation of ñāṇadassana on the mark that it is about insight knowledge?
Pulsar wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:37 am
Dear Auto, I think you confuse the features of a great being with the goal of Buddhist jhanas. Goal of
four buddhist jhanas is 'The release from suffering' might one's sexual preference, or
what one wishes to accomplish in this regard, be part of it?
you expressed doubt it is in a canon, so i brought out Sutta evidence. And seem you still not understand it isn't about sexual preference..

here's another one from same Sutta,
https://suttacentral.net/mn91/en/sujato
So the Buddha used his psychic power to will that Brahmāyu would see his retracted private parts.
Atha kho bhagavā tathārūpaṃ iddhābhisaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkhāsi yathā addasa brahmāyu brāhmaṇo bhagavato kosohitaṃ vatthaguyhaṃ.

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DooDoot
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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot » Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:54 pm

auto wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:10 pm
The word ñāṇadassana ... in english language what is translated as 'knowledge and vision'.
I think ñāṇadassana can be translated in two ways:

1. As wisdom, as found in SN 56.11 about realising the four noble truths, which means "knowledge & vision".

2. As psychic power or developing a brightened radiant mind, as found in AN 4.41/SN 51.20, which means "knowing & seeing".

I posted I think Pulsar has these two possible translations mixed-up. If we read AN 4.41 and the related teaching in SN 51.20, we find "developing a brightened radiant mind" is not related to the type of wisdom described in SN 56.11.

Regards :)
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:22 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:54 pm
auto wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:10 pm
The word ñāṇadassana ... in english language what is translated as 'knowledge and vision'.
I think ñāṇadassana can be translated in two ways:

1. As wisdom, as found in SN 56.11 about realising the four noble truths, which means "knowledge & vision".

2. As psychic power or developing a brightened radiant mind, as found in AN 4.41/SN 51.20, which means "knowing & seeing".

I posted I think Pulsar has these two possible translations mixed-up. If we read AN 4.41 and the related teaching in SN 51.20, we find "developing a brightened radiant mind" is not related to the type of wisdom described in SN 56.11.

Regards :)
add mn2, https://suttacentral.net/mn2/en/sujato#mn2:4.2
And what are the defilements that should be given up by seeing? Katame ca, bhikkhave, āsavā dassanā pahātabbā?
Can dassanā be certain type of noticing/naming?

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/sujato
‘This is the noble truth of suffering.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another. ‘Idaṃ dukkhaṃ ariyasaccan’ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhuṃ udapādi, ñāṇaṃ udapādi, paññā udapādi, vijjā udapādi, āloko udapādi.
dhammesu cakkhuṃ '...Such was the vision,'
āloko udapādi - 'light that arose in me'
This is that middle way, which gives vision and knowledge, and leads to peace, direct knowledge, awakening, and extinguishment. Ayaṃ kho sā, bhikkhave, majjhimā paṭipadā tathāgatena abhisambuddhā cakkhukaraṇī ñāṇakaraṇī upasamāya abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṃvattati.
cakkhukaraṇī ..'gives vision'
ñāṇakaraṇī..'gives knowledge'

https://suttacentral.net/an4.41/en/sujato
It’s when a mendicant focuses on the perception of light, concentrating on the perception of day, Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ālokasaññaṃ manasi karoti, divāsaññaṃ adhiṭṭhāti—
regardless of whether it’s night or day. yathā divā tathā rattiṃ, yathā rattiṃ tathā divā.
https://suttacentral.net/sn51.20/en/sujato
And they meditate perceiving continuity: Pacchāpuresaññī ca viharati—
as before, so after; as after, so before; yathā pure tathā pacchā, yathā pacchā tathā pure;
as below, so above; as above, so below; yathā adho tathā uddhaṃ, yathā uddhaṃ tathā adho;
as by day, so by night; as by night, so by day. yathā divā tathā rattiṃ yathā rattiṃ tathā divā.
And so, with an open and unenveloped heart, they develop a mind that’s full of radiance. Iti vivaṭena cetasā apariyonaddhena sappabhāsaṃ cittaṃ bhāveti.
here's the logic. Perception of continuity, perceiving continuity. The before after, after before, day night is just saying how you do it, there is perception of continuity regardless of the changes day night, night day, before after..removing the distinction its same or similar to the example of vinnanam anidassam

https://suttacentral.net/dn11/en/sujato
“Consciousness that’s invisible, ‘Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ,
infinite, radiant all round. anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ;
Here’s where water and earth, Ettha āpo ca pathavī,
fire and air find no footing; tejo vāyo na gādhati.
here’s where long and short, Ettha dīghañca rassañca,
fine and coarse, beautiful and ugly; aṇuṃ thūlaṃ subhāsubhaṃ;
here’s where name and form Ettha nāmañca rūpañca,
cease with nothing left over—asesaṃ uparujjhati;
with the cessation of consciousness, Viññāṇassa nirodhena,
that’s where this ceases.”’” etthetaṃ uparujjhatī’”ti.
the middle way is vinnanam anidassam, it can be perception of light or perception of continuity, etc if it pertains to the logic.

vinnanam anidassam seem to be uninterrupted knowing or something like that. What causes interruptions is vinnana/rebirth consciousness, maybe.

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:17 am

As one develops a practice in 4 jhanas even to rudimentary levels, the rewards express themselves here and now. For instance Pulsar read MN 7 a while ago, it was just ordinary, the understanding minimal, did not leave a huge impression on Pulsar, say like MN 122 or MN 119
Here is MN 7
Vatthupama sutta
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nypo.html
reading it recently Pulsar sees it altogether in a different light, extraordinary.
It does not refer to 4 jhanas as such, but the implication is not absent in the
text.
collect the forces of the mind and bring it to
unification,
when taints are suppressed from that samadhi, 
develops insight.
a moment
by moment activation of wisdom
The practice can take many forms, or a combination of practices, it all leads to the same goal. It is as if Buddha taught with all of us in mind, 4bv are easy for some, others access 4 establishments of mindfulness more easily, the requirements for first jhana is very similar to those of kayanupasana,
the guarding of the sense doors, and distancing oneself from the sense world, alleviation of
somanassa and domanassa.
It moves us towards fine material sphere. Something one must always recall, Jhana is not a stand alone thing, it is found threading through all the other essential practices, i.e. awakening factors.
The meditator in 4th jhana is also radiating with the 4bv,  immeasurably.
End of MN 6 is striking.
It refers to cessation as is found in jhana suttas quite commonly. 
For instance there is a passage in the sutta.
He understands thus:
There is this, there is the inferior (the origin of suffering)
there is the superior (the path leading out of suffering)
and beyond there is the escape for this whole field of perception.
(that is nibbana)
and cessation is described as in DN 2 Samannaphala, but Vatthupama sutta, does not refer to 4 jhanas.The beauty of Dhamma exposition in this sutta is fascinating. 
When he knows and sees thus, his mind is liberated from the taint of sensual desire,
from the taint of being, and from the taint of ignorance.
When it is liberated there comes the knowledge: "it is liberated": He understands
"Birth is destroyed,
the holy life has been lived,
what had to be done has been done.
There is no more coming to any state of being; 
This bhikkhu is called the one bathed
with the inner bathing
Reason why Buddha spoke of bathing, Sundarika Bharadvaja was in the audience, he thought bathing in holy rivers cleansed defilements. 
The poem of the sutta ends in 
what need for you to go to Gaya (holy spring)
for any well will be your holy spring
The experts used are from the Ven. BB version. :heart:
PS My gratitude to Ven. Dhammanando, a comment he made transformed my understanding
of the suttas.

confusedlayman
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:13 am

is sleep paralysis without terror feeling instead sleep paralysis with bliss feeling has anything to do with any meditation?
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:10 am

confusedlayman wrote
is sleep paralysis without terror feeling instead sleep paralysis with bliss feeling has anything to do with any meditation?
on another thread you wrote
paralysis definition= body paralysed, mind fully aware and know what's going on but can't move body at will

In that state if you are capable of getting rid of the five hindrances why not? meditation is a stillness, paralyzed body is a still body.
Good night and Sweet dreams dear confusedlayman :heart:

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:08 pm

More one treads the territories of 4 jhanas, more one's attention is grabbed by some reference to one or another aspect of the four buddhist jhanas, without specific identification, dotting the landscape of Theri and Tharagatha.
For instance below is an excerpt from Theragatha under Udayin
Having passed beyond all fetters,
come from the wood of desire, to the non-wood,
delighting in the renunciation of
sensual pleasures. released like
gold from stone
It had  intrigued me, like a riddle that I could not quite solve...
Gold from stone? now I clearly see it is another statement of the 4 jhanas, tightly condensed.
Gold from stone? is the cessation referred to in DN 2, nothing less, nothing more, the state of visankhara pointing to nibbana, atammayata. a sigh of relief!  
An elegant Monday to all!
 
PS 
I do not say that final knowledge is achieved all at once.
On the contrary, final knowledge is achieved by gradual training, by gradual practice, by gradual progress
Buddha in the Middle Length Discourses. :candle:

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:24 pm

Jatukanni sutta inspired me last night, more because I got hold of a translation of Sutta Nipata by Ven. BB the day before, I already had the Saddhatissa version. It is wonderful to have both, Sutta nipata is mostly poems, poems are beautiful, but to make it beautiful, one sacrifices elaboration.  
So as Ven. Thanissaro said in his commentary to Thera and Therigatha, we notice this in Sutta nipata too, but for the practitioner of jhana, this is no issue at all.
The advantage of BB version: it is full of elaborations, to the extent, so too much, but here is the deal. It does elaborate on some things essential too, which I would have missed by reading Saddhatissa alone.
Sutta reads, a synopsis:
You master rule desire like the sun, with heat and light,
rule and control the world of sensations..., 
has fully understood sensual objects, and has abandoned,
overcome, vanquished, overwhelmed, exhausted,
and crushed sensual afflictions
Now the reader must ask "How does one exhaust sensual afflictions?",
the knowledgeable reader knows that that it is only through right concentration (4 jhanas) of the holy path, that this can be done.
It is this right concentration that
sheds the heat and light
Jatukanni further continues,
Sir you are a globe of wisdom!
Tell me how to renounce the world, the world of wearing out and dying
(the world meaning the reach of one's sensosphere)

Master answers:
having recognized the right practice,
practice in conformity, (jhana) full of good behavior, guarding the doors of sense faculties
by the 4 establishments,
4 right kinds of striving,
4 bases for spiritual potency,
5 faculties, 5 powers, 7 factors of enligtnment, noble magga,
as security, as a shelter, as a cavern
May the 4 References of Mind be with you always! :heart:

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:49 am

To deviate from the previous sutta, this morning I made a comment on a different thread.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35501
That comment is related to cessation, which is an aspect of 4th jhana, so I thought of copying the
answer here.
excerpt from Nagara sutta
This consciousness turns back at name-&-form, and goes no farther. It is to this extent that there is birth, aging, death, falling away, & re-arising, i.e., from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness....
We must ask ourselves "How does consciousness come to be?"
It comes to be, because it is fed.
Srilankaputra showed us how consciousness is fed.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Putramansa sutta is all about it, a sutta we must meditate on every second,
if we are bent on terminating Dukkha.
Sutta refers
to how ordinary person constantly makes contact, and create the fuel of feeling to arise
In fact the sutta advices
Be like the skinned cow, do not make contact

But do we listen? NO.
Instead we perpetuate DO every second, by relentlessly making contacts.
How do we stop making contact? how to temporarily stop DO?
Short answer: by practicing buddhist jhanas
.

In the imperturbable state of 4th jhana, contact stops, there is cessation.
There is viveka from the weary rolling of DO,
another name for cessation is nirodha samapathi, or sometimes commentaries call this Arahantaphalasamapatthi

Pulsar's answer will only make sense to those who have made a sincere attempt to practice four jhanas as described in DN 2 Samannapahala sutta.
To others it will only be a concept.
Concepts do not lead to destruction of afflictions.
Buddha continues later, of his awakening
I have attained this path to Awakening, i.e., from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, (i.e. consciousness does not turn back, the topic under discussion) from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling....
Everyone can experience this briefly,
if they have the patience to meditate as Buddha instructed in DN 2, this taste of cooling.
During the cessation one is so concentrated, so absorbed, it is as if the six-sense media do not exist, or come to a stop. :heart:
PS once I wrote a verse on related matter in DW. Here is a link to the thread.viewtopic.php?f=22&t=34262&sid=a94f3956 ... ccd0040fbd

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