Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:41 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:58 am
I think my posts are accurate. For example it is quite literally obvious MN 128 is not about jhana. Also, it appears quite obvious there is no awareness of breathing in the 1st jhana. :smile:
hmm jhana is a means to get to the sukha. Corruptions of mind are what doesn't allow you to live without blemish and comfortability. Jhana doesn't allow corruptions to arise.

jhana could mean escape literally, you seclude yourself from hindrances so that sukha could arise.

https://suttacentral.net/mn128/en/sujato
I developed immersion while placing the mind and keeping it connected; without placing the mind, but just keeping it connected; without placing the mind or keeping it connected; with rapture; without rapture; with pleasure; with equanimity. So kho ahaṃ, anuruddhā, savitakkampi savicāraṃ samādhiṃ bhāvesiṃ, avitakkampi vicāramattaṃ samādhiṃ bhāvesiṃ, avitakkampi avicāraṃ samādhiṃ bhāvesiṃ, sappītikampi samādhiṃ bhāvesiṃ, nippītikampi samādhiṃ bhāvesiṃ, sātasahagatampi samādhiṃ bhāvesiṃ, upekkhāsahagatampi samādhiṃ bhāvesiṃ.

When I had developed immersion in these ways, Yato kho me, anuruddhā, savitakkopi savicāro samādhi bhāvito ahosi, avitakkopi vicāramatto samādhi bhāvito ahosi, avitakkopi avicāro samādhi bhāvito ahosi, sappītikopi samādhi bhāvito ahosi, nippītikopi samādhi bhāvito ahosi, sātasahagatopi samādhi bhāvito ahosi, upekkhāsahagatopi samādhi bhāvito ahosi.
the knowledge and vision arose in me: Ñāṇañca pana me dassanaṃ udapādi,
that above Sutta inlcudes the knowledge and vision, it is after 4 jhanas.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.41/en/sujato
And what is the way of developing immersion further that leads to gaining knowledge and vision? Katamā ca, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā ñāṇadassanappaṭilābhāya saṃvattati?
It’s when a mendicant focuses on the perception of light, concentrating on the perception of day, Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ālokasaññaṃ manasi karoti, divāsaññaṃ adhiṭṭhāti—
regardless of whether it’s night or day. yathā divā tathā rattiṃ, yathā rattiṃ tathā divā.
And so, with an open and unenveloped heart, they develop a mind that’s full of radiance. Iti vivaṭena cetasā apariyonaddhena sappabhāsaṃ cittaṃ bhāveti. This is the way of developing immersion further that leads to gaining knowledge and vision.
Ayaṃ, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā ñāṇadassanappaṭilābhāya saṃvattati.

it can't be that hard? teh thing you can do after 1-4 jhana is you can do have perception of said thing on where it doesn't exist naturally. And eventually wisdom, knowledge and vision rises.

ñāṇadassana

http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/d/dassana
dassanaPTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Dassana,(nt.) [Sk.darśana,see dassati1] -- 1.Lit.seeing,looking; noticing; sight of,appearance,look.Often equivalent to an infinitive “to see,” esp.as Dat.dassanāya in order to see,for the purpose of seeing (cp.dassana-kāma=daṭṭhu-kāma):[Bhagavantaṁ] dassanāya M.II,23,46; A.I,121; III,381; Sn.325.-- (a) (nt.) “sight”
I think the logic is in order to have perceptions of kama-loka you need be dwell in rupa-loka

just that these samadhis won't take into account that there is unborn tendencies, anusaya, which are removed with other type of samadhibhavana.

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:52 pm

Dear Pseudobabble, and Dear Auto, thank you for your practical comments, others can read those for themselves,
In these ordinary worlds of ours, sometimes our minds become extraordinary. Let us cherish that thought, and work on the extraordinary quality of our minds, and keep the 6th factor of 8-fold path in mind RIGHT EFFORT. :candle:

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DooDoot
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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:54 am

auto wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:41 pm
jhana could mean escape literally, you seclude yourself from hindrances so that sukha could arise.... it can't be that hard?
Being without hindrances is not necessarily 'jhana'. Refer to the attachment below.
Pulsar wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:52 pm
Dear Pseudobabble, and Dear Auto, thank you for your practical comments, others can read those for themselves
The evident fact you do not mention there are different levels of concentration and your approval of similar views posted by others that also lead to overestimation is more evidence of not knowing what jhana is. That is, more evidence of an inability or lack of experience to differentiate between different levels of concentration.
Pulsar wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:52 pm
keep the 6th factor of 8-fold path in mind RIGHT EFFORT.
Right effort includes the effort to engage in Right Speech. Refer to MN 117. The attachment below shows the five hindrances can be absent during very low levels of concentration. :smile:
Attachments
Hindrances samadhi.png
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Jhana

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:20 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:46 am
To your point that 'it appears quite obvious there is no awareness of breathing in the 1st jhana': it may well appear so to you, but since you have expended so many words in proclaiming jhana to be a 'supernormal', super-difficult, state to access, I wonder how it can appear so obviously to you. Besides, if you knew for sure, you wouldn't need to use the word 'appear', and you would be able to state clearly how it is for you, instead of making endless references and trying to beat people down on the subject.
Yes, it's a strangely ambiguous position to take. Its like claiming to be an expert on something, but not explaining the basis for that expertise.
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DooDoot
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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:50 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:20 am
Yes, it's a strangely ambiguous position to take. Its like claiming to be an expert on something, but not explaining the basis for that expertise.
I trust my position was clearly explained. Consider reading the thread.

:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:35 am

Dinsdale wrote
Pseudobabble wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:46 am
To your point that 'it appears quite obvious there is no awareness of breathing in the 1st jhana': it may well appear so to you, but since you have expended so many words in proclaiming jhana to be a 'supernormal', super-difficult, state to access, I wonder how it can appear so obviously to you. Besides, if you knew for sure, you wouldn't need to use the word 'appear', and you would be able to state clearly how it is for you, instead of making endless references and trying to beat people down on the subject.
Yes, it's a strangely ambiguous position to take. Its like claiming to be an expert on something, but not explaining the basis for that expertise
.
Unlike DooDoot Pulsar thinks Dinsdale is right on topic. Dinsdale do you recall there were some wanderers on Buddha's day who would wander around claiming They knew the truth but when asked to explain, it was like cat got their tongue. But we all need a sense of humor to survive, and we all need DooDoot in our lives. We all admire his lawyerly skills, a rare gift indeed, when put to good use. With love :candle:

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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:54 am

Pulsar wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:35 am
Unlike DooDoot Pulsar thinks Dinsdale is right on topic.
My dear Pulsar

No. Dinsdale of off topic because I explained my view. Therefore, it is wrong to say Dinsdale is on topic. I said:
1. MN 128 is about upakilesa (hindrances to jhana) rather than about jhana itself.

2. The 1st jhana has five factors, none of which are the breath. Therefore, Anapanasati is not jhana.

3. Jhana is a superhuman state.
It appears proven on this thread by the suttas most of your posts errors. Allow me to summarise the right views, which clearly showed your views were different to the suttas:

* MN 117 says Right Speech is a prerequisite of Right Jhana. Therefore anyone that struggles to practise Right Speech obviously has not attained Jhana.

* MN 128 called Upakkilesa Sutta is about the arising of various hindrances or corruptions. It is not about jhana 'forms & nimittas'. It is about the emerging of psychic powers (and seeing external forms) which cause fear & distraction in the meditator

* MN 31 says jhana is a superhuman state

* we think Upacara Samadhi to be Jhana but Ajahn Martin said that some great monks needed 17 years of hard practice in caves to attain Jhana

* for the attainment of the first jhana, it is necessary to leave unwholesome states of mind, such as anger... as well as a thirst for sensual pleasures

* If it were enough to get rid of sensual desire only for the duration of meditation, then everyone who sat down to meditate would reach jhana very quickly.. But no, few people are capable of it in the world.

* "moderately accomplished in concentration", it is not about jhana, but about other lower types of samadhi.

:smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:19 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:54 am
auto wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:41 pm
jhana could mean escape literally, you seclude yourself from hindrances so that sukha could arise.... it can't be that hard?
Being without hindrances is not necessarily 'jhana'. Refer to the attachment below.
i agree when the seclusion is meant as taking your body to empty lodging, but not when you think in terms of mind: like within mind turning away from sensual aspect to a empty lodging. With the mind the fruit is immediate and you have to know what you doing since its visible here and now.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pseudobabble » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:57 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:53 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:46 am
As we all know, these are very old texts, which have been subjected to considerable editing, and as such, I think there is plenty to be gained from an experiential exploration of the techniques instead of textual nitpicking. Just because a particular text says something is so, does not mean it is so.
Again, obviously the above is an unsubstantiated comment. Regardless, which "experience" is actually true??
That the texts are old, and have been subjected to editorial action, is not unsubstantiated.
That a practitioner gains from practicing, exploring, and experimenting, is not unsubstantiated.
That some texts in the Pali canon are incorrect, incomplete, later introductions, and many other variations on not literally and completely correct in all respects, is not unsubstantiated.

So, nothing about the above excerpt is unsubstantiated.

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:53 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:46 am
To your point that 'it appears quite obvious there is no awareness of breathing in the 1st jhana': it may well appear so to you, but since you have expended so many words in proclaiming jhana to be a 'supernormal', super-difficult, state to access, I wonder how it can appear so obviously to you.
The suttas only refer to 5 jhana factors. Breath is not one of them. If breathing was an object of jhana, then consciousness would flow in & out of the body, tracking the breath. This means the mind cannot be "ekaggata". Its not rocket science. If breath continued to flow ordinarily, there would still be stress in the body, thus rapture could not consume the breathing. Its not rocket science.
The suttas commonly refer to 5 jhana factors, that is true. But obviously that is simply an analytic scheme - you could come up with other schemes which identify the factors of jhana (or any state), with more or fewer categories, in a completely different framework. That 'there are only 5 jhana factors' (commonly listed in the Pali canon), does not mean those five factors are the be all and end all of the analysis of jhana. Other schools of Buddhism have different schemes, and there are other religions which clearly knew of jhana, and have their own schemes. That you know only what you have read, and stick rigidly to it, is fully half my point. Yet you try to 'explain' to others about how obvious things are.

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:53 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:46 am
Besides, if you knew for sure, you wouldn't need to use the word 'appear', and you would be able to state clearly how it is for you, instead of making endless references and trying to beat people down on the subject.
Obviously, if I knew the truth of jhana, it is not likely others would believe me. What is the point of claiming to know when the audience cannot ever know if your statement is true or false?
Why should you claim to know? If you recall, I said you would be able to state clearly how it is for you, which is all anyone can do when the nature of the topic is that it is irretrievably private and subjective. But if you did know, I would expect you to be more encouraging, and less concerned with whether 'the audience' believed you or not. Instead you spend your efforts trying to discredit anyone who claims that jhana is doable.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Re: Jhana

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:32 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:57 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:53 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:46 am
As we all know, these are very old texts, which have been subjected to considerable editing, and as such, I think there is plenty to be gained from an experiential exploration of the techniques instead of textual nitpicking. Just because a particular text says something is so, does not mean it is so.
Again, obviously the above is an unsubstantiated comment. Regardless, which "experience" is actually true??
That the texts are old, and have been subjected to editorial action, is not unsubstantiated.
That a practitioner gains from practicing, exploring, and experimenting, is not unsubstantiated.
That some texts in the Pali canon are incorrect, incomplete, later introductions, and many other variations on not literally and completely correct in all respects, is not unsubstantiated.

So, nothing about the above excerpt is unsubstantiated.

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:53 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:46 am
To your point that 'it appears quite obvious there is no awareness of breathing in the 1st jhana': it may well appear so to you, but since you have expended so many words in proclaiming jhana to be a 'supernormal', super-difficult, state to access, I wonder how it can appear so obviously to you.
The suttas only refer to 5 jhana factors. Breath is not one of them. If breathing was an object of jhana, then consciousness would flow in & out of the body, tracking the breath. This means the mind cannot be "ekaggata". Its not rocket science. If breath continued to flow ordinarily, there would still be stress in the body, thus rapture could not consume the breathing. Its not rocket science.
The suttas commonly refer to 5 jhana factors, that is true. But obviously that is simply an analytic scheme - you could come up with other schemes which identify the factors of jhana (or any state), with more or fewer categories, in a completely different framework. That 'there are only 5 jhana factors' (commonly listed in the Pali canon), does not mean those five factors are the be all and end all of the analysis of jhana. Other schools of Buddhism have different schemes, and there are other religions which clearly knew of jhana, and have their own schemes. That you know only what you have read, and stick rigidly to it, is fully half my point. Yet you try to 'explain' to others about how obvious things are.

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:53 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:46 am
Besides, if you knew for sure, you wouldn't need to use the word 'appear', and you would be able to state clearly how it is for you, instead of making endless references and trying to beat people down on the subject.
Obviously, if I knew the truth of jhana, it is not likely others would believe me. What is the point of claiming to know when the audience cannot ever know if your statement is true or false?
Why should you claim to know? If you recall, I said you would be able to state clearly how it is for you, which is all anyone can do when the nature of the topic is that it is irretrievably private and subjective. But if you did know, I would expect you to be more encouraging, and less concerned with whether 'the audience' believed you or not. Instead you spend your efforts trying to discredit anyone who claims that jhana is doable.
:goodpost:
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DooDoot
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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:03 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:32 am
:goodpost:
I find the post terrible because it would create chaos from what is very coherent. Jhana is said to be purity. If it is not purity & if it does not lead to the greater purity of Nibbana (freedom from suffering), what is the point of Dhamma & Buddhism? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:04 pm

There are fairly objective ways to weed out states that are definitely not jhana. For example, if at least one of the obstacles arises, then it is not jhana, if there are no jhana factors, then it is not jhana. Finally, in the first jhana there is no perception of bodily pain, i.e. a person can sit for a day without changing his posture. Jhana is very pleasant, and therefore a long stay in it (many hours) is natural. The monks who reached jhan spent a little time collecting alms and eating, as well as very little time for sleeping, and all the rest of the time were in jhana, contemplated tilakhana, and quickly reached Nibbana.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:44 am

Antaradhana wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:04 pm
There are fairly objective ways to weed out states that are definitely not jhana. For example, if at least one of the obstacles arises, then it is not jhana, if there are no jhana factors, then it is not jhana. Finally, in the first jhana there is no perception of bodily pain, i.e. a person can sit for a day without changing his posture. Jhana is very pleasant, and therefore a long stay in it (many hours) is natural. The monks who reached jhan spent a little time collecting alms and eating, as well as very little time for sleeping, and all the rest of the time were in jhana, contemplated tilakhana, and quickly reached Nibbana.
sukha/pleasant feeling arises because of there is no feelings and the arising of that pleasant feeling is non-arising since when bad feeling ceases there is sukha because bad feeling have ceased..

the reason why you not should give in to first urges to change physical posture is to get access to the emotional body, feelings. And you don't have to sit entire day the faster you can get to emotional body there better it is.
I think in split second you avoid bad emotions and bind yourself to your own charm what you need fulfill by doing some insane performances.

In order to prove your idea wrong there need appear an ascetic who can fulfill and outperform your dogmas. You don't understand cause and effect.

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Re: Jhana

Post by auto » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:56 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:54 am
* If it were enough to get rid of sensual desire only for the duration of meditation, then everyone who sat down to meditate would reach jhana very quickly.. But no, few people are capable of it in the world.

* "moderately accomplished in concentration", it is not about jhana, but about other lower types of samadhi.

:smile:
the sensual desires what arise are the escape from the same sensual desires you don't see far enough into these desires and don't worry you won't be able to do so in several years either unless you do progress regularly.

If sensual desires won't arise its then you need apply more discipline be more celibate. In your case you prolly don't produce fuel what is reactive hence need stimulation instead.

If you want to get to get somewhere in your mediations the senses need be endowed with strings of sensuality that when you see somethign then tehre arise urges what then can be usd for furter meditation.


0 progress DD. See you are far from mediation, you rather are the ājivaka, son of the dead, mortals.

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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:17 pm

auto wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:44 am
Antaradhana wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:04 pm
There are fairly objective ways to weed out states that are definitely not jhana. For example, if at least one of the obstacles arises, then it is not jhana, if there are no jhana factors, then it is not jhana. Finally, in the first jhana there is no perception of bodily pain, i.e. a person can sit for a day without changing his posture. Jhana is very pleasant, and therefore a long stay in it (many hours) is natural. The monks who reached jhan spent a little time collecting alms and eating, as well as very little time for sleeping, and all the rest of the time were in jhana, contemplated tilakhana, and quickly reached Nibbana.
sukha/pleasant feeling arises because of there is no feelings and the arising of that pleasant feeling is non-arising since when bad feeling ceases there is sukha because bad feeling have ceased..

the reason why you not should give in to first urges to change physical posture is to get access to the emotional body, feelings. And you don't have to sit entire day the faster you can get to emotional body there better it is.
I think in split second you avoid bad emotions and bind yourself to your own charm what you need fulfill by doing some insane performances.

In order to prove your idea wrong there need appear an ascetic who can fulfill and outperform your dogmas. You don't understand cause and effect.
Sorry, but I do not quite understand what you want to convey in their posts.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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