3rd and 4th Jhana as an equanimous look at the world?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 977
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: 3rd and 4th Jhana as an equanimous look at the world?

Post by Pondera » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:45 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:12 am
Pondera wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:27 am
So, I see a contradiction here with this style of jhana and MN 111. Do you not?
“‘Then, lord, being conscious & awake when the rain-deva was raining, the rain-deva was pouring, lightning-streaks were shooting out, and a thunderbolt split (the air), you neither saw anything nor heard a sound.’

“‘Yes, friend.’
Quite so; however:
"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another.

... the second jhana: ... perception

... the third jhana: ... perception

... the fourth .... the infinitude of space ... the infinitude of consciousness ... the dimension of nothingness ... perception
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16972
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: 3rd and 4th Jhana as an equanimous look at the world?

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:07 am

Pondera wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:45 am
"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. ...
Yes, this is a disputed point, which has been discussed here quite a lot.

There is a discussion in Bhikkhu Analayo's book, Early Buddhist Meditation Studies, which you can download here: https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... alayo.html
No matter which side of the dispute one is on, the collection of references and arguments is useful.

From page 118:
This discourse [MN111] has regularly been quoted in support of the
ability to contemplate the impermanent nature of the mental
constituents of an absorption while being in the actual attain-
ment. ...
The discussion goes on for several pages. His main conclusion is:
So when these states have not yet come into being or disap-
pear, a practitioner inevitably is not yet or no longer in the ab-
sorption, simply because the absorption lasts only as long as
all of the mental qualities that characterize it are fully present.
Therefore to observe the arising of these mental qualities and
their disappearance could only happen before an absorption is
attained or after the attainment has come to an end.
:heart:
Mike

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5768
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: 3rd and 4th Jhana as an equanimous look at the world?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:58 am

Pondera wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:45 am
perception
perception
perception
Hi. Are you saying "perception" ("sanna") is "thinking" ("vitakka")? Thanks
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 977
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: 3rd and 4th Jhana as an equanimous look at the world?

Post by Pondera » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:11 pm

Thanks, Mike.

Hi DooDoot. No. I don’t believe perception is thinking and I’m not opposed to your interpretation of what vittaka is in this style of jhana.
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 5524
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: 3rd and 4th Jhana as an equanimous look at the world?

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:38 pm

pyluyten wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:10 pm

Gombrich, would have the same view. I have only one short excerpt
I know this is controversial, but it seems to me that the third and fourth jhanas are thus quite unlike the second
The whole essay is here:
https://www.academia.edu/15576816/Religious_experience

and there is an abridged and chattier audio version here:
https://www.ochs.org.uk/lectures/religi ... y-buddhism

pyluyten
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:08 am

Re: 3rd and 4th Jhana as an equanimous look at the world?

Post by pyluyten » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:44 pm

Thanks much.
I've just had a look a few pages, but i will soon enjoy it ! It sounds a very surprising argument but i want to leverage it as something constructive

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests