Mindfulness vs full consciousness

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
budo
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Re: Mindfulness vs full consciousness

Post by budo »

Dinsdale wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:46 am
budo wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:43 pm The definition I'm most interested in exploring is:

"constant thorough understanding of impermanence"
IMO impermanence is something to be noticed, not something to be pursued or intellectualised.
I don't see where I wrote pursued or intellectualized. Understanding doesn't mean intellectualizing. When a child touches a flame, the child understands the consequences or effects, there is no intellectualizing going on.

For me "constant thorough understanding" means making multiple passes over something to understand it deeper and clearer, in other words becoming familiar with the experience.
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Re: Mindfulness vs full consciousness

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From 2:50

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Mindfulness vs full consciousness

Post by Spiny Norman »

budo wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:43 pm
Dinsdale wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:46 am
budo wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:43 pm The definition I'm most interested in exploring is:

"constant thorough understanding of impermanence"
IMO impermanence is something to be noticed, not something to be pursued or intellectualised.
I don't see where I wrote pursued or intellectualized. Understanding doesn't mean intellectualizing. When a child touches a flame, the child understands the consequences or effects, there is no intellectualizing going on.

For me "constant thorough understanding" means making multiple passes over something to understand it deeper and clearer, in other words becoming familiar with the experience.
Sure, but that involves paying close attention and noticing, not going around with an idea or a view about impermanence.
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Re: Mindfulness vs full consciousness

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DooDoot wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:19 am
Dinsdale wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:46 amIMO impermanence is something to be noticed, not something to be pursued or intellectualised.
You appear to be contradicting yourself above; where you say impermanence (an object of satipatthana) is to be merely "noticed" rather than "pursued" or "practised". Yet you are making many posts on this forum about how your idea of "sati" ("paying attention") is to be practised (pursued). The same can be said for the breathing, namely, it is to be merely "noticed". Yet you seem to be saying breathing must be "paid attention" to by practise or pursuing.
Impermanence is not an object of satipatthana. If you read MN10 you will see that there are four frames of reference, these are the objects for attention.

If we pay attention to something, we will notice more about it.
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Re: Mindfulness vs full consciousness

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pegembara wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:32 am From 2:50

Does anyone know who this monk is, please?
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Re: Mindfulness vs full consciousness

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Dinsdale wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:23 amImpermanence is not an object of satipatthana.
:roll:
And how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination?

On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on inconstancy'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on dispassion'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on cessation'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on relinquishment': On that occasion the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He who sees with discernment the abandoning of greed & distress is one who watches carefully with equanimity, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination.

MN 118
he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body.

MN 10
:heart:
Dinsdale wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:23 amIf we pay attention to something, we will notice more about it.
Actually, in my experience, the more "we" try to pay attention; the more the mind is full of applied thinking & self; which hinders clear seeing. Often, the major difficulty practitioners have is discerning the breathing clearly or lucidly; particularly once the breathing calms a little. Generally, it is not only the five hindrances that are obstacles to anapanasati. Often, the major obstacle to anapanasati is the poor quality of concentration. Your posts are funny Dinsdale. You talk of observing the breathing similar to observing the Himalaya Mountains. The breathing is actually very difficult to consistently observe & only the right quality of mind can do it on a continuous basis. :)
Dinsdale wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:23 amIf we pay attention to something, we will notice more about it.
I am not sure who or what you are trying to say, Dinsdale. If we pay attention to the breathing, we will notice it calms and plays a disappearing act (unless the mind has right mindfulness). Attempting to practise anapanasati in the coarse or crude manner you are posting about brings the very opposite result that you have said. If we try to pay attention to the breathing in a crude way, we will notice less about it. :meditate:
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Re: Mindfulness vs full consciousness

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https://suttacentral.net/mn118/pli/ms
kāye kāyānupassī, bhikkhave, tasmiṃ samaye bhikkhu viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ.
kaye kayanupassi- is awareness originated from a body, bodyawareness

next part
tasmin- longing, afraid
samaye- precept, religious oblication
next part
viharati atapi sampajano - knowing about the presence, active knowing within presence
satima vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam - knowing, brought out the tamed, pacified craving, longing.

loke- doesn't mean as rid of aversion to the world, but it complements the kaye kayaanupassi so what you experience is world.
--
sampajano- means when you are aware you are aware of a presence. And the further sentence explains it more, that the presence is world

the satima vineyya loke .. is inlcuded in sampajano, these are its parts.
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Re: Mindfulness vs full consciousness

Post by Dhammanando »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:55 am Does anyone know who this monk is, please?
Ven. Aggacitta.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Re: Mindfulness vs full consciousness

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Thank you Bhante. :anjali:

I've seen a couple of videos featuring him, and he seems very impressive.
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Re: Mindfulness vs full consciousness

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DooDoot wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:03 am On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on inconstancy'; On that occasion the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
MN 118
So the monk remains focused exclusively on mental qualities ( = paying attention to them ) and notices inconstancy. Clearly this doesn't mean just thinking about inconstancy in an abstract way. Inconstancy is a quality of the phenomena one is currently observing, not merely a view.
DooDoot wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:03 am he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body.
This is another example of noticing things - in this case noticing things about the body, which is the object of satipatthana in the first frame. Again, you can't notice things without paying attention.
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Re: Mindfulness vs full consciousness

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Dinsdale wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:35 amSo the monk remains focused exclusively on mental qualities ( = paying attention to them ) and notices inconstancy. Clearly this doesn't mean just thinking about inconstancy in an abstract way. Inconstancy is a quality of the phenomena one is currently observing, not merely a view.
Lol... you're back. :hello:

The above quote is from MN 118 (which does not mention "mental qualities") and is not from MN 10 (which is often questionably translated as "mental qualities"). MN 118 and MN 10 are obviously not the same.

As for the translation "remains focused"... :? :roll:

As I suggested, the volition of the monk does nothing except use mindfulness to maintain an empty mind. The seeing of the impermanence happens automatically, without an act of violition or will, as explained in AN 11.2.
Dinsdale wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:35 amThis is another example of noticing things - in this case noticing things about the body, which is the object of satipatthana in the first frame. Again, you :roll: can't notice things without paying attention.
"Mindfulness" ("sati") does not mean "paying attention" ("manasikara"). More importantly, the mind can notice things without directly paying attention to those things. When the mind hears a loud noise via the ear, does it have to pay attention? No. In Satipatthana, the mind primarily gives attention to using mindfulness to maintain a clear mind. When the mind is clear, the experiencing of the objects happens automatically. Based on the quote below, it seems you have it all backwards:
Thus associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up hearing the good Dhamma. Hearing the good Dhamma, becoming full, fills up faith. Faith, becoming full, fills up careful attention. Careful attention, becoming full, fills up mindfulness and clear comprehension. Mindfulness and clear comprehension, becoming full, fill up restraint of the sense faculties. Restraint of the sense faculties, becoming full, fills up the three kinds of good conduct. The three kinds of good conduct, becoming full, fill up the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness, becoming full, fill up the seven factors of enlightenment. The seven factors of enlightenment, becoming full, fill up true knowledge and liberation. Thus there is nutriment for true knowledge and liberation, and in this way they become full.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.61/en/bodhi
"Establishing mindfulness" does not mean "paying attention" to objects. It means remembering to not having craving, clinging & wrong views towards objects .

:smile:
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Re: Mindfulness vs full consciousness

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DooDoot wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:22 pm "Mindfulness" ("sati") does not mean "paying attention" ("manasikara").
But paying attention to the four frames is precisely what the Satipatthana Sutta describes. As your quote above from AN10.61 confirms: "Careful attention, becoming full, fills up mindfulness and clear comprehension.."
DooDoot wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:22 pm More importantly, the mind can notice things without directly paying attention to those things.
Obviously, and this is the usual state of affairs. But this is not what the Satipatthana Sutta describes.
DooDoot wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:22 pm In Satipatthana, the mind primarily gives attention to using mindfulness to maintain a clear mind. When the mind is clear, the experiencing of the objects happens automatically.
Having a clear mind is certainly an effect of practising satipatthana, but in the Satipatthana Sutta the practice is clearly described as paying attention to each frame of reference in turn.

What experience have you actually had of practising satipatthana? I recall previously you were claiming the Satipatthana Sutta is a "forgery". :shrug:
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Re: Mindfulness vs full consciousness

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Dinsdale wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:37 pmBut paying attention to the four frames is precisely what the Satipatthana Sutta describes. As your quote above from AN10.61 confirms: "Careful attention, becoming full, fills up mindfulness and clear comprehension.."
I disagree. You (Dinsdale) appear to be saying mindfulness causes attention where as AN 10.61 appears to be saying attention causes mindfulness.
Dinsdale wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:37 pm But this is not what the Satipatthana Sutta describes.
Its just a translationm which does not necessarily clarify the order/sequence of practise.
Dinsdale wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:37 pmHaving a clear mind is certainly an effect of practising satipatthana, but in the Satipatthana Sutta the practice is clearly described as paying attention to each frame of reference in turn.
Sorry, but again we disagree. I say clear mind is the cause rather than effect of satipatthana. So does AN 10.61. So does MN 10 & MN 118, which say:
"There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.
:candle:
Dinsdale wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:37 pmWhat experience have you actually had of practising satipatthana? I recall previously you were claiming the Satipatthana Sutta is a "forgery".
Yes, there are monks, such as Bhikkhu Sujato, who have said its not authentic. This said, we should avoid the matter of "personal experience". I think our respective posts obviously self-evidently infer personal experience,
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Re: Mindfulness vs full consciousness

Post by Spiny Norman »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:29 pm
Dinsdale wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:37 pmBut paying attention to the four frames is precisely what the Satipatthana Sutta describes. As your quote above from AN10.61 confirms: "Careful attention, becoming full, fills up mindfulness and clear comprehension.."
I disagree. You (Dinsdale) appear to be saying mindfulness causes attention where as AN 10.61 appears to be saying attention causes mindfulness.
I have been saying that satipatthana practice involves paying attention to the four frames. Possibly you are confusing the practice itself with the goals of the practice.

From previous discussion your main practice seems to be the four tetrads of anapanasati, rather than satipatthana practice. Are you aware that these are actually quite different practices?
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Re: Mindfulness vs full consciousness

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Dinsdale wrote: Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:42 amI have been saying that satipatthana practice involves paying attention to the four frames. Possibly you are confusing the practice itself with the goals of the practice.
I've quoted the relevant suttas but you keep merely posting your own opinions & keep denying the Pali. It seems it is you confusing the practise itself with the results of the practise. Note: observing objects is not the "goal". The goal is Nibbana.

* Manasikara = attention; giving attention to the Teachings and giving attention to remembering (sati) to practise the teachings.

* Sati = remembering; remembering to keep the mind free from craving, unwholesome states & wrong views (MN 117); remembering to keep the mind free from covetousness & distress (MN 10 & MN 118).

* Anupassi = observe, contemplate, see, look at (not "remains focused" :roll: ); the automatic experiencing of the objects that automatically enter into consciousness when the mind is free from unwholesome states; the four objects of breathing, rapture, purity of citta & seeing Truth.

* Pajānāti = knowing

* Paṭisaṃvedī = experiencing

To end, it appears you are basically posting about 'McMindfulness'; which is like a deer staring into headlights. :hello: :meditate:

Note: This article just arrived into my email: How did mindfulness become “bare, non-judgmental, present-moment awareness”? Bhikkhu Cintita.
The Buddha wrote:
A mendicant develops the awakening factor of mindfulness, which relies on seclusion, fading away and cessation and ripens as letting go.

https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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