Why is it necessary to cultivate sila to have samadhi?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Post Reply
Everaldo
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:09 pm

Why is it necessary to cultivate sila to have samadhi?

Post by Everaldo » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:09 pm

There are many great famous meditation masters who can spend hours meditating. These masters are bad people. They've spent their whole lives doing bad things. I am not thinking specifically of Theravada Buddhist monks, but in all the meditation masters who have already existed in history. We all know "great masters" who are doing wrong things.

So, I'm thinking that:
- it is possible to have samadhi without sila.
- people with a good heart will not necessarily be good meditators.
- the fact that a person has the ability to spend hours in meditation does not prove anything at all.
- The practice of meditation does not always help the person to become a good person.

I'm feeling a little confused, does anyone have any ideas?

User avatar
Manopubbangama
Posts: 183
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:17 pm

Re: Why is it necessary to cultivate sila to have samadhi?

Post by Manopubbangama » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:47 pm

Everaldo wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:09 pm


So, I'm thinking that:
- it is possible to have samadhi without sila.
Samadhi is a state where the five hindrances don't exist. When the hindrances are absent, the mind becomes very clear and calm.

Sila is a way to sweep a way the cobwebs from the mind to prepare it for vipassana and samatha.

If someone is completely obsessed with 'sila' as an idea, thinking it is "good" and "virtuous", they probably won't attain samadhi.

When samadhi meditation is over, attachment to worldly things is not very strong: the desire to do anything harmful or aggressive is basically absent.

Samadhi is not a reward for being good like Santa with kids: its a preliminary methodology for advanced meditation.

Being harmful and aggressive towards others is so against the nature of citta during samadhi that its hard to imagine that there is not an inverse relationship between it and sila: the finite details are completely unknown to me, however.

Because the pleasure of samadhi is so great compared to activities like sex, power, killing, drugs, etc, I cannot imagine anyone desiring to engage in these latter activities if they had unremitting samadhi.
Last edited by Manopubbangama on Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sabbe Sankhara Anicca - Sabbe Sankhara Dukkha - Sabbe Dhamma Anatta

SarathW
Posts: 10513
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Why is it necessary to cultivate sila to have samadhi?

Post by SarathW » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:02 pm

Q- it is possible to have samadhi without sila.
A- Yes. It is called Mitya Samadhi. Wrong concentration.
Q- people with a good heart will not necessarily be good meditators.
A- Agree
Q- the fact that a person has the ability to spend hours in meditation does not prove anything at all.
A-It proves the person can sit or stand or sleep for a long time.
I know a begar who to stand up and gase at a coin for many hours without moving.
Q- The practice of meditation does not always help the person to become a good person.
A- Agree. It depends on what you concentrate on.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

paul
Posts: 1359
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 11:27 pm
Location: Vietnam

Re: Why is it necessary to cultivate sila to have samadhi?

Post by paul » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:21 pm

The NEP has a threefold division, sila, samadhi, panna, of which sila is the foundation. Furthermore, samadhi is necessary for insight to operate.

“samadhi is only a particular kind of one-pointedness; it is not equivalent to one-pointedness in its entirety. A gourmet sitting down to a meal, an assassin about to slay his victim, a soldier on the battlefield — these all act with a concentrated mind, but their concentration cannot be characterized as samadhi. Samadhi is exclusively wholesome one-pointedness, the concentration in a wholesome state of mind. Even then its range is still narrower: it does not signify every form of wholesome concentration, but only the intensified concentration that results from a deliberate attempt to raise the mind to a higher, more purified level of awareness.”—-“The Noble Eightfold Path”, Bikkhu Bodhi

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4605
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Why is it necessary to cultivate sila to have samadhi?

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:45 pm

Here's something that might be relevant to the questions posed:
"For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no need for an act of will, ‘May freedom from remorse arise in me.’ It is in the nature of things that freedom from remorse arises in a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue.

“For a person free from remorse, there is no need for an act of will, ‘May joy arise in me.’ It is in the nature of things that joy arises in a person free from remorse.

“For a joyful person, there is no need for an act of will, ‘May rapture arise in me.’ It is in the nature of things that rapture arises in a joyful person.

“For a rapturous person, there is no need for an act of will, ‘May my body be serene.’ It is in the nature of things that a rapturous person grows serene in body.

“For a person serene in body, there is no need for an act of will, ‘May I experience pleasure.’ It is in the nature of things that a person serene in body experiences pleasure.

“For a person experiencing pleasure, there is no need for an act of will, ‘May my mind grow concentrated.’ It is in the nature of things that the mind of a person experiencing pleasure grows concentrated.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Here, we are not told whether sila is a necessary condition for the arising of samadhi. But we are told that its possession and consummation is a sufficient condition for the next stage of a process leading to samadhi. Bliss will naturally lead to samadhi; bodily serenity will naturally lead to bliss; rapture will lead to bodily serenity; joy will lead to rapture; and that joy is a result of being free from remorse; which is the outcome of the possession and consummation of sila.

The Ratha-Vinita Sutta seems to be making a similar point in different terms when it says that
purification of ethics is only for the sake of purification of mind.
https://suttacentral.net/mn24/en/sujato

auto
Posts: 514
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Why is it necessary to cultivate sila to have samadhi?

Post by auto » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:58 pm

Manopubbangama wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:47 pm

Because the pleasure of samadhi is so great compared to activities like sex, power, killing, drugs, etc, I cannot imagine anyone desiring to engage in these latter activities if they had unremitting samadhi.
jhana pleasure is from being quite secluded from sensuality.
"Deva-king, do you recall ever having previously experienced such happiness & joy?"

"Yes, lord, I do."

"And how do you recall ever having previously experienced such happiness & joy?"

"Once, lord, the devas & asuras were arrayed in battle. And in that battle the devas won, while the asuras lost. Having won the battle, as the victor in the battle, this thought occurred to me: 'Whatever has been the divine nourishment of the asuras, whatever has been the divine nourishment of the devas, the devas will now enjoy both of them.'
But my attainment of happiness & joy was in the sphere of violence & weapons. It didn't lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge to self-awakening, to Unbinding. But my attainment of happiness & joy on hearing the Blessed One's Dhamma is in the sphere of no violence, the sphere of no weapons. It leads to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge to self-awakening, to Unbinding."
Happiness and joy from violence was when asked if have had experience before such happiness from hearing Dhamma.
So were it similar case with Gotama, when he recalled his childhood pleasant abiding?

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html
When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"
"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
it is pleasure born from withdrawal

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests